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Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by agentultra on Friday January 28, 2022 @08:30AM (#30114303)
Permutation City, here we come.

I wonder if Greg Egan had the foresight to predict this for the story or if he invented that part for narrative purposes.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by chinathrow on Friday January 28, 2022 @08:31AM (#30114321)
When I was like 12 or so, I had a thought that if we can calculate everything, we could be living in a full blown simulation.

To be honest, like 30y later, I still go back to that nagging thought _a lot_.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by benlivengood on Friday January 28, 2022 @09:53AM (#30115321)
The thought that sticks in my mind is mathematical realism; if we can prove the mathematical existence of the outcome of a simulation (nothing harder than inductively showing that the state of a simulation is well-defined at state S for the first and all successive S) then what's the difference between things in the simulation actually existing v.s. possibly existing? All of the relationships that matter between states of the simulation are already proven to exist if we looked at (calculated) them, so what necessary property can we imagine our Universe having that the possible simulation does not?
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by visarga on Friday January 28, 2022 @02:46PM (#30119435)
> so what necessary property can we imagine our Universe having that the possible simulation does not?

It lacks the magical spark, the qualia, the spirit, the transcendent. Or what people like to imagine makes our own reality special. Our own reality cannot be understood because it's such a hard problem, and it "feels like something" (maybe like a bat?), while a simulation is just math on CPUs. Consciousness is a hard problem because it transcends physical sciences, it's so great that it can exist even outside the realm of verification. /s

Hope you forgive the rant, it's just amazing how much philosophy can come from the desire to fly above the mechanics of life. But what they missed is that the reality of what happens inside of us is even more amazing than their imaginary hard problem and special subjective experience. The should look at the whole system, the whole game, not just the neural correlates. What does it take to exist like us?

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by VikingCoder on Friday January 28, 2022 @09:55AM (#30115363)
A simulated hurricane doesn't kill anyone.

But it may be possible that there's no such thing as "simulating" intelligence. If you do certain calculations, that is "intelligent." Same for consciousness, etc.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by wrinkl3 on Friday January 28, 2022 @11:03AM (#30116365)
A simulated hurricane would kill simulated people.
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by tsol on Friday January 28, 2022 @11:12AM (#30116536)
Think of simulated children! Oh the simulated pain..
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by disease on Friday January 28, 2022 @12:37PM (#30117823)
"We live inside a dream."
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by kingofclams on Friday January 28, 2022 @09:19AM (#30114863)
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by afshin on Friday January 28, 2022 @08:33AM (#30114339)
This idea has been formalized: https://www.simulation-argument.com/
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by sva_ on Friday January 28, 2022 @09:37AM (#30115090)
This idea has also existed for at least 200 years

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by dekhn on Friday January 28, 2022 @10:25AM (#30115739)
I read that as a teenager, thought it sounded nice, went to grad school and did molecular dynamics simulations (like folding at home) for a decade, then went to google and built the world's largest simulation system (basically, the largest group of nodes running folding at home). Eventually we shut the system down because it was an inefficient way to predict protein structure and sample folding processes (although I got 3-4 excellent papers from it).

The idea is great, it was a wonderful narrative to run my life for a while, but eventually, the more I learned, the more impractical using full atomistic simulations seem for solving any problem. It seems more likely we can train far more efficient networks that encapsulate all the salient rules of folding in a much smaller space, and use far less CPU time to produce useful results.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by sva_ on Friday January 28, 2022 @12:48PM (#30117961)
Yeah, I think the idea of Laplace's Demon is mostly just useful to make a philosophical argument about whether or not the universe is deterministic, and it's implication on free will.
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by dekhn on Friday January 28, 2022 @01:39PM (#30118622)
I dunno, I wonder what Laplace would have made of the argument over the meaning of wavefunction collapse. It took me a very long time to come to terms with the idea of a non-deterministic universe.
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by sva_ on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:07PM (#30119656)
That's peculiar. Most people probably struggle more with the idea of a deterministic universe, as it'd leave no room for free will, which would make everything kind of meaningless.

I'm also more in the camp of "quantum effects making the universe non-determinstic." It's a nicer way to live.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by dekhn on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:32PM (#30119938)
I've evolved over the years from "determinism implies no free will" to roughly being a compatibilist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism, see also Daniel Dennett). I don't particularly spend much time thinking that (for example) a nondeterministic universe is required for free will. I do think from an objective sense the universe is "meaningless", but that as humans with agency we can make our own meaning.

However, most importantly, we simply have no experimental data around any of this for me to decide. Instead I enjoy my subjective life with apparent free will, regardless of how the machinery of the actual implementation works.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by mensetmanusman on Friday January 28, 2022 @02:06PM (#30118951)
It’s interesting that many things are deterministic to human-relevant time/length scales. If the small stuff is non-deterministic, it’s interesting that large ensembles of them are quite deterministic.

It’s maddening :)

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by lelandfe on Friday January 28, 2022 @09:58AM (#30115383)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

Going further back to the 1600's, Descartes' idea of an evil demon deceiving one's mind with a perfect, fake reality made me think often of simulations in my undergrad philosophy classes

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by tsol on Friday January 28, 2022 @11:12AM (#30116523)
Looking at it from that view, we're just as likely to be a simulation as we are to have been created by God. I mean I'm a theist, but I don't see many huge differences except the cultural aspect where the theism/atheism debate is something most people have an emotional connection to.
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by KarlKemp on Friday January 28, 2022 @12:50PM (#30117993)
A God, not being out for her own amusement, will likely create only one universe.

A player with a simulator will create dozens.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by tsol on Friday January 28, 2022 @01:19PM (#30118392)
>A God, not being out for her own amusement, will likely create only one universe.

Why would that be? I see no reason why God might not create parallel universes

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by coolspot on Friday January 28, 2022 @02:30PM (#30119241)
Electrical bill and GPU shortages in God’s reality could be a reason.
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by Taylor_OD on Friday January 28, 2022 @12:27PM (#30117678)
It's a bit naive... But the best argument for me that we are living in a simulation is that we went from Pong to pretty good VR (good enough that if you have a beer or two before using you can forget its VR for some period of time) in 50 years. In another 50 years it seems fair to assume that we will be able to create VR that fully immersive and impossible to distinguish from real life.

Even with no other arguments about the benefits of WHY one would want to live in a fully simulated world... It seems probable to me that we are based on the idea that it could be possible.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by iamstupidsimple on Friday January 28, 2022 @12:30PM (#30117728)
> In another 50 years it seems fair to assume that we will be able to create VR that fully immersive and impossible to distinguish from real life.

Technology growth is always non-linear. it's also fair to assume we could stagnate for 50 years also.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by joseluis on Friday January 28, 2022 @09:02AM (#30114666)
we don't even need to be able to calculate everything, we just need to fool you! The Truman's show meets the Matrix.
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by reasonabl_human on Friday January 28, 2022 @11:00AM (#30116306)
If you want to solve that nagging thought, pick up Griffith‘s intro to quantum mechanics textbook. Goes through the philosophical implications of qm alongside learning the physics. The world as we know it is non-deterministic thanks to wave functions and their random collapsing!
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by amself on Friday January 28, 2022 @10:40AM (#30115971)
I went through the same phase at 12. I am nearing 18 now, and I am very thankful for nondeterminism.
Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by agentultra on Friday January 28, 2022 @11:20AM (#30116646)
Specifically, I'm referring to Autoverse, the artificial simulation of a single bacterium down to the atomic level.

It was such a fascinating idea that I found myself more than once trying to mimic the atomic part at a much smaller scale over the years.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by webmaven on Friday January 28, 2022 @02:35PM (#30119306)
> Permutation City, here we come.

You might enjoy the show Devs:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devs

Fair non-spoilery warning, there is quite a bit of creepy existential angst.

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by stronglikedan on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:26PM (#30119870)
> there is quite a bit of creepy existential angst

seems to be a trend across all genres nowadays

Re:Simulation of a 2B-atom cell that metabolizes and grows l... by webmaven on Friday January 28, 2022 @03:49PM (#30120172)
Sure. Though most of it isn't literally existential.