News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by kcb on Friday January 21, 2022 @12:22AM (#30019492)
Microsoft shouldn't even have MacBooks available unless specifically for the minority developing for Apple platforms. It's just a concession of defeat otherwise.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by kristopolous on Friday January 21, 2022 @12:34AM (#30019564)
Chasing after the Apple aesthetic doesn't work because they're not Apple. Design works holistically and you can't extricate it and expect success.

To make this obvious, let me use an analogy. If a vegan restaurant found a very successful steakhouse and decided to copy their decor of say game animal heads and rifles on the wall, it would probably decrease their sales regardless of how faithfully they match the aesthetics.

The context matters. Also the fact that both imaginary businesses are in the same industry of serving food isn't enough of a similarity. It's quite specific.

And even if the contexts match, the pursuit just makes them seen as a knockoff; a laggard, an imitation.

The goal isn't to meet the competition, it's either to beat it or be somewhere else.

Intentionally making yourself a 2nd rate Apple isn't a positioning strategy; they could simply introduce a discount line and knock you out in a single blow. It's phenomenally stupid

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by aylmao on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:42AM (#30020019)
+1, context matters a lot. In my experience, the Dock alone is pretty terrible for window management. I use it mostly as a launcher and for easy access to files/directories. Its design works in macOS because it isn't the primary utility to manage windows there.

The center of window management in macOS I'd say is easy access to Mission Control (prev. Exposé). All Macs come with either a huge, multi-touch trackpad or a Magic Mouse with gestures to trigger it. I sometimes use my Macbook with a "normal" mouse— I've mapped all extra buttons to trigger Mission Control commands otherwise I wouldn't be able to effectively navigate my way around.

Moreover, full-screen windows are automatically made their own desktop, so one switches between these windows using desktop switching. I actually am just now remembering that the Dock supports window switching with a ctrl-click: I completely forgot since I only use it for rudimentary app switching and for windows it's all Mission Control and desktops.

This, is context at the OS-level and hardware levels, but of course there's also the user base and what they're used to after years of using their computers.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by qsort on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:33AM (#30020766)
Exactly, I'm also on mac and I don't really like some individual design choices, but when taken together, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Copying some individual elements is just really dumb. For example, Gnome 3 copied the mac menu bar. Except menus don't actually go there (windows still have their own menu bar), negating the very meaning of having an unified menu bar.

The result is that my desktop now has a ugly-ass, useless, wasteful black bar on top. Why.

I have to agree with the OP, it's the triumph of form over function.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by tssva on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:33AM (#30019952)
I and many others find the Apple UX experience to be awful. If I wanted to suffer through it I would just buy a MacBook. I purposely didn't get another MacBook when my last one died.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by silon42 on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:53AM (#30020094)
+1 We want an improved W2K... Linux is probably the best way to get it (with many tweaks... start by not using Gnome).
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by Sohcahtoa82 on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:30PM (#30028768)
Win2K was great. When I used Win7, I used the Windows Classic theme which made it look like Win2K.

I use Windows Blinds on my Win10 system to make it look like Win98, which is close enough to 2K.

And for extra lulz, my screensaver is the Windows 95 loading screen.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by pmontra on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:40AM (#30020808)
At least GNOME designers apparently are using GNOME and they still let me configure my desktop as I want it to be. I undid some man years of their work and used some others.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by garaetjjte on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:18AM (#30024640)
Uh, I think GNOME3 suffers from the same authoritarian minimalism design problem.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by pmontra on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:40PM (#30028021)
Indeed but at least they dogfood their work and they like the result (can't understand why.)
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by prmoustache on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:16AM (#30022389)
Some people like Gnome. I like using gnome on my Lenovo Yoga as it is as efficient being keyboard driven as it is using the desktop as a tablet.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by alpaca128 on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:58AM (#30022813)
I usually prefer tiling WMs but among the more modern Linux desktops Gnome is my favorite. It does all I need in a polished way. At least since the performance improvements, initially Gnome 3 was just too sluggish.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by boardwaalk on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:57AM (#30020114)
It wouldn’t conflate the state of Windows 11 with macOS at all really. Just because you dislike macOS doesn’t mean Windows 11 is like macOS because it’s kind of bad.

macOS isn’t perfect but Apple hasn’t mangled core features like the task bar and start menu for something that is superficially prettier but lacks a bunch of actually useful features that used to exist.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by copperx on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:51AM (#30020082)
Awful compared to what, if I may ask?
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by tssva on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:46PM (#30033250)
All versions of Windows it has competed against except Windows 8 and Windows 8.1.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:57AM (#30020509)
to any sane desktop environment so basically windows (except the 11 abomination) and KDE
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:54AM (#30020483)
it's simple, apple users want ugly and confusing UI while windows users want pretty and practical UI, bringing the apple one to windows will never work
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by lopatin on Friday January 21, 2022 @12:32AM (#30019549)
For devs I think it matters less. But, yeah, for designers on the _Windows Desktop Experience Team_ to not be using their own product for day to day work is absurd to me. It sounds like a joke: "The people who designed this shitty feature don't even use it themselves", but alas, it appears to be the truth.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by Aerroon on Friday January 21, 2022 @12:44AM (#30019639)
Why would you even hire designers that don't use Windows as their daily OS? It's not even a question of making designers use your software, but you could just hire people who do. Globally you probably have to go out of your way to hire a designer that wasn't Windows based.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by chelical on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:21AM (#30019869)
I'm not sure this is true. Anecdotally, across three Fortune 500 tech companies I've worked at, designers / web devs / program managers had Macbooks (or had the option of choosing Macbooks) even when the team was developing primarily in Windows.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:52AM (#30020464)
I think having some people daily driving other systems may be beneficial, providing a fresh view

but if majority of your lead designers never in their lives used the taskbar they are surprised when replacing it with a dock causes outcry

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by gabeio on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:51AM (#30020075)
> Globally you probably have to go out of your way to hire a designer that wasn't Windows based.

That, likely, highly depends on your industry. Designers doing mobile application design, as well as web design from my limited experience tend to steer towards Macs. Even within my college the entire graphics design department was Macs. Of course if you are working on a Windows based product you'd in theory expect the designers to use or be familiar enough with Windows but you may be surprised.

I'd be curious to know if there are regional (country) differences in this.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zarzavat on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:44AM (#30020409)
The key word is ‘globally’. MacBooks are expensive, and because they are hardware they cannot be pirated. I’ve worked with Eastern European designers who were excellent but could not afford Apple hardware. You only have to look outside North America and Western Europe.

It’s tragic that because of elitism Microsoft does not hire those designers and instead hires designers who don’t care about their product.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by neoberg on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:51AM (#30020899)
Which country is that you are referring as Eastern Europe? I live in Eastern Europe and every designer + most of the devs I know are using Macs. I am not originally from here and my home country currently is economically worse than most Eastern Europe countries. Even there majority of designers use Macs.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by andi999 on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:48AM (#30020875)
You could say, you dont want the designer who is supposed to design win8 to be comfortably working with win7. Instead you want them to be more inspired by different OSes.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by alpaca128 on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:50AM (#30022719)
If people wanted a fundamentally different UI than Windows has then they wouldn't use Windows in the first place. When we went from XP to Windows 7 that was a huge improvement. It was fundamentally still the same UI with the exact same workflows, just nicer in every way.

When you have over a billion users worldwide there's an expectation that you don't treat your product like a startup's art project. I haven't met a single person who wasn't completely confused by Windows 8's UI or who liked the changes. I've seen lifelong Windows users spend 10+ minutes desperately looking for the shutdown button.

There's "inspiration" by different products but in the end you need to know your own product in order to improve it.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by lionkor on Friday January 21, 2022 @05:17AM (#30021562)
Really, why though? Is there something inherently wrong with satisfying user expectations?

If you want innovation, how about performance, accessibility, compatibility,...

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by ClumsyPilot on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:40AM (#30022611)
It's one thing to be inspired, it's another to be completely ignorant of how you are breaking workflows for a billion people
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by numpad0 on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:31AM (#30020751)
Designers who could tolerate a Windows laptop in the Win7 era are probably not good designers. They were mostly inexcusably ugly, and Adobe software support was known to be not ideal until late Win8.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:35AM (#30021215)
anyone who tolerates laptops at all is not good at judging ergonomics and usability, they are only made so you can get the necessary minimum done when you can't access the main machine and it shows
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by newsbinator on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:33AM (#30022126)
I do all my work from the sofa or floor. Bad ergonomics but good usability.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by ClumsyPilot on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:42AM (#30022630)
Well, I know we all have our kinks and perversions, but it's a bit unfair to push them onto unsuspecting joe
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:42AM (#30024079)
the physical and mental pain related to the terrible "keyboards" and cooling systems and small, poorly positioned screens laptops offer makes the usability nearly non-existent
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by newsbinator on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:56AM (#30024304)
You haven't really coded until you've coded under a blanket.

And I'm not an indestructible 20-year-old either :)

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:33AM (#30024901)
it's literally the worst experience, though sure, it is an experience
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by asplake on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:34AM (#30023234)
It is universally more ergonomic to have a device that you can’t take to where you need to be working? Unbelievable.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @09:42AM (#30024096)
it's more ergonomic not having to use device that actively tries to hurt you
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by alexvoda on Sunday January 23, 2022 @03:07AM (#30044496)
Now hear me for a second, I think I will blow you mind.

All laptops have a very special feature called external monitor support. And for some laptops, you can even buy docks.

Boom!

I know, it's amazing.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Tuesday January 25, 2022 @04:16AM (#30069873)
and then you're still stuck with the inferior performance and acoustics, why would you want to do that?
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by numpad0 on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:13AM (#30021980)
That is an expert's view which is not valued today which makes it untrue. I personally agree, I totally do, I mean my setup has triple display and plenty RAM, but sorry!
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by grishka on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:06AM (#30021943)
I know way too many people who build Android apps but use an iPhone as their personal phone. And this is how you get things like the back button going back through tabs that you selected on the tab bar. Even some of Google's own apps are guilty of this.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by puchatek on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:17AM (#30019848)
"Dog food? No, thank you."
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by gibolt on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:55AM (#30020107)
"Do you have any apples?"
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by GeorgeWBasic on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:21AM (#30020280)
"You're fired. How do you like them apples?"
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by chelical on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:16AM (#30019839)
I strongly disagree. Two of the major flaws of pre-Nadella Microsoft were arrogance and complacency.
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by dleslie on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:22AM (#30019876)
Dogfooding your own product isn't arrogance or complacency, it's common sense. If it's not good enough for you not to prefer a competitor, then it's not good enough to ship.

Arrogance is not doing any or ongoing competitive analysis.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by pbhjpbhj on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:36AM (#30020783)
I mean, dogfooding is good but not everyone has to make the pinnacle product?

If someone is selling something that's out of reach, financially, for most people, then making a cheaper and worse product available can still be good. Doesn't mean you prefer it.

I'm guessing Microsoft don't want to think of themselves as "the poor man's OS" however. And, they're not, it costs something like £120.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by oblio on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:19AM (#30021109)
> I mean, dogfooding is good but not everyone has to make the pinnacle product?

This discussing thread is getting lost in the weeds.

We were talking about people <<designing>> Windows.

For sure they should be using it, <<day-to-day>>. They should feel the same pain as their users are feeling and they should want to improve it.

Anything else is a travesty and that's how you end up with enterprise software (designed for the CEO, used by the peons), or Android apps (designed for iOS by people with iPhones, used by peons on Android).

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by prmoustache on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:21AM (#30022418)
I think there is a case about using day to day the product they want to improve, but there is also a case about knowing how competitors are doing it.

The hardest part I think is working and sharing work 2 different systems at the same time. Not that the technical solutions do not exists, but muscle memory will always make that one system end up feeling unbearable and it might not because it is worse but by resistance to change.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by Sohcahtoa82 on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:46PM (#30028978)
> but there is also a case about knowing how competitors are doing it.

In the case of UI/UX, I don't want this.

I use Windows because it's not MacOS. I absolutely hate MacOS. Microsoft UI/UX designers using MacOS as inspiration is a critical bug, not a feature, as far as I'm concerned.

I want my taskbar to show labels. I want multiple windows of the same app to be a separate item on the taskbar so that switching between multiple windows of the same app is a single click. I want each window to have its own menu bar, rather than a single menu bar at the top. I want a taskbar on each monitor, each showing only the items on that monitor.

Windows 10 has all these as an option. If Win11 is imitating MacOS, all those go away.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by zakius on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:37AM (#30021232)
there's a bit of issue there: most of users don't feel the same pain, I think huge part of edge dev team uses edge daily despite it being basically unusable and they are happy and proud of that mess, the same goes for chrome, chropera, quantum... so dogfooding isn't the silver bullet either
Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by CRConrad on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:18AM (#30021099)
> I'm guessing Microsoft don't want to think of themselves as "the poor man's OS" however. And, they're not, it costs something like £120.

"Whereas MacOS is free, it's included with the machine and Apple doesn't charge for it separately"?

But how much of the price you pay for that machine is because of the OS, that's an unknown. Maybe the actual development costs, distributed per device, are available somewhere deep in the bowels of Apple accounting, but that doesn't tell us how much of the (inflated) price you pay for the box is due to the OS. Microsoft's dev costs for Windows probably aren't £120 a copy either (especially considering what a tiny minority of users actually pays exactly that, as an explicit item separate from the hardware).

So I reckon Windows still actually is "the poor man's OS": You probably pay more than that for MacOS, only it's baked into the cost of the hardware so you don't know how much, exactly, it is you're paying.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by ClumsyPilot on Friday January 21, 2022 @07:49AM (#30022712)
> reckon Windows still actually is "the poor man's OS"

Ask gamers that paid $3000 for the graphics card alone, I recon their opinion will differ

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by CRConrad on Friday January 21, 2022 @10:25AM (#30024757)
But the OS has a separate price tag there. Just because gamers rich enough to blow ridiculous money on their rigs also use it doesn't make Windows "the rich man's OS"; that expression means something only the rich man can afford. Rearrange the sentence a bit, and "the poor man's [whatever]" means the only such thing the poor man can afford.

MacOS sure ain't the poor man's OS.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by alexvoda on Sunday January 23, 2022 @03:18AM (#30044536)
Ever since Lion or something, MacOS has been free. Not free as in free upgrade, but free as in free to download and install and use on any compatible machine (only Macs, of course).

Windows always had a price, even if that price was included by the OEM in the price of the device.

Re:The Windows 11 taskbar is an annoying step backward by CRConrad on Saturday January 29, 2022 @11:46AM (#30127794)
> Not free as in free upgrade, but free as in free to download and install and use on any compatible machine (only Macs, of course).

Let me repeat that:

   only Macs, of course
So then it...

* IS just an upgrade. Those Macs all came with an OS originally, didn' they?

* ISN'T actually "free": You have to buy a Mac first. They cost money -- quite a lot of it, compared to most other PCs, I've heard.