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Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday January 20, 2022 @04:59PM (#30015722)
> Can anyone explain the argument they're trying to make?

If Facebook removes their app from the App Store (or cripples it), and says you have to side load this app, most Americans will do so. Even if that app violates a number of user-friendly policies. The OS, of course, could enforce that at a technical level, which weakens the argument significantly.

Also lots of people will click links and side load spam apps, but that’s par for the course.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday January 20, 2022 @06:53PM (#30017171)
> If Facebook removes their app from the App Store (or cripples it), and says you have to side load this app, most Americans will do so.

The primary reason for this is that Facebook itself has a dominant market position (network effect) and is deserving of antitrust scrutiny. "We need this evil monopoly to protect us from that evil monopoly" has a better solution in smashing them both.

Notice that this argument doesn't work anywhere else. If your tetris app which is in competition with many others decides it wants to go out of Apple's store so it can spy more, nobody is following you. They'll just install one of the hundred others.

To gain anyone's trust for any app that isn't a monopolist, an alternate store would have to have a similar reputation for rejecting bad apps. But then the scammers wouldn't be able to make it into any of the stores people trust. The advantage is that some of the non-scammers that Apple rejects for illegitimate reasons, would. (Or competitive pressure would cause Apple to get better at not rejecting them in order to prevent it.)

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by jtbayly on Friday January 21, 2022 @12:16AM (#30019456)
I don’t think I’d call Angry Birds or FarmVille or Fortnite or any other game a monopoly, but millions would sideload those.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by AnthonyMouse on Friday January 21, 2022 @12:38AM (#30019595)
Out of hundreds of millions of users. Is the game going to give up >90% of its user base?

Especially when the reason for the move is obvious. If Facebook leaves the app store, and Facebook is completely free and makes money from advertising, everybody knows why they're doing it and it's to screw you out of your privacy. But you can't say no because Facebook is the only way you have to talk to your grandparents, hence the need for antitrust.

If Epic Games moves Fortnite to another store because the other store charges lower fees but still has a good reputation for not allowing bad apps, likewise the reason they moved is obvious. It's to have lower fees, because Fortnite makes money by selling things in the game. Many users will be fine with that, as well they should be, because that's the point of allowing other stores.

But a game doing it for the same reason as Facebook, well, they're going to lose most of their users. Because nobody needs a game that much, so the company doing it for an adversarial reason will cause large numbers of customers to tell them where to go.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by bzzzt on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:24AM (#30023136)
You underestimate Fortnite, that's about the only way to talk to peers when you're 14 years old. (imo exactly the same kind of 'monopoly' that Facebook has)
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by AnthonyMouse on Friday January 21, 2022 @03:46PM (#30029766)
Assuming you were right that Fortnite was really at the same level as Facebook, you're really just arguing that we should antitrust Fortnite.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by dgellow on Thursday January 20, 2022 @07:16PM (#30017395)
Is it what is happening with Android? From what I read it’s not the case, almost every install is done via the play store, sideloading is a power user feature that has almost no impact on the average user security.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by UncleMeat on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:27AM (#30025795)
> has almost no impact on the average user security

I don't think that's true.

Google publishes malware stats on the on-play and off-play ecosystems and the malware rates differ. Famous examples like malicious versions of FortNite make news headlines. Play policies also enforce various security-relevant action like updating to near-recent targetSdkVersions and fixing a variety of automatically detectable security vulns. No such enforcement exists in the broader off-play ecosystem so it will be easier to install an app with trivial security flaws.

Whether this is a justification for banning sideloading completely? That's another question.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by p49k on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:00AM (#30021897)
It's not happening as much with Android because Google has a vested interest in making it easy for people to be tracked, so it has fewer restrictions on doing so. The "Ask not to track me across apps" feature on Apple is what this is mainly about for Facebook.

But yes, there have been such cases. Epic successfully forced a massive number of Android users to sideload Fortnite to get around Google's policies, and Google wasn't happy and tried to undermine that attempt.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by Elora on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:40AM (#30025982)
> If Facebook removes their app from the App Store (or cripples it), and says you have to side load this app, most Americans will do so. Even if that app violates a number of user-friendly policies. The OS, of course, could enforce that at a technical level, which weakens the argument significantly.

The OS, in iOS' case at least, does already do this. So the case is weak right now.

The #1 reason for the app store is to take that sweet cut. The #1 reason to sideload is so those apps can bypass the store's cut. Follow the money.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by ViViDboarder on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:00AM (#30025325)
I still don’t see what it has to do with hurting competition and innovation.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by saghm on Thursday January 20, 2022 @07:21PM (#30017444)
If it was worth doing this, why aren't they doing that today for Android then?
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by petmon on Thursday January 20, 2022 @07:34PM (#30017585)
Epic Games tried side loading Fortnite on Android, and then went back to the Play Store. Here's their statement:

Google puts software downloadable outside of Google Play at a disadvantage, through technical and business measures such as scary, repetitive security pop-ups for downloaded and updated software, restrictive manufacturer and carrier agreements and dealings, Google public relations characterizing third party software sources as malware, and new efforts such as Google Play Protect to outright block software obtained outside the Google Play store.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by saghm on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:44PM (#30028073)
So basically, the fear mongering about major publishers taking advantage of sideloading is entirely unfounded, which is exactly the point I was trying to make.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Thursday January 20, 2022 @05:19PM (#30016008)
What technical restrictions can they do?

It can't be sandboxing, as the entitlements and/or existence of sandboxing for an app is enforced by the App Store, and we've just said we're not using that.

It also removes privacy protections: Facebook is required to ask permission to track you on iOS. It's only required to by platform policy in the App Store license agreement. They're not using that any more, so goodbye opt-in tracking.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by vineyardmike on Thursday January 20, 2022 @06:23PM (#30016853)
Apple is being extremely dishonest. The App Store changes shouldn't impact sandboxing.

> App Sandbox is an access control technology provided in macOS, enforced at the kernel level.

https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Se...

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Thursday January 20, 2022 @08:54PM (#30018217)
No, that is not how it works, Apple is not being dishonest.

The App Sandbox enforces the sandbox rules that are a signed component of the app. The App Store ensures that the entitlements that an app has are valid, necessary, and safe.

If you remove the App Store, a binary can have any entitlements or policies it would like, including not to have one. For example the Facebook, TikTok, or Google apps can give themselves the appropriate permissions to access all your data. The kernel will enforce those sandbox rules, and ensure that the app never accesses more than all of your data.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by vineyardmike on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:31PM (#30028787)
> The kernel will enforce those sandbox rules, and ensure that the app never accesses more than all of your data.

WTF good is a sandbox if this is the level of sandboxing it does? The app store is not great at catching things before they get released to the public, so this seems like a good reason to not trust apple exclusively if they're the only line of defense.

Why can't the calls to internal APIs still require auth'ing? Sandbox running software from accessing data outside of a specific internal API (via socket, etc), and require a handshake process or something before it returns data via that channel. The user can still get an OS-level prompt to approve use of API. You can literally still require a signed key in this step to identify apps. If an app tries to go around that... sandbox keeps it from seeing the rest of the system.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Saturday January 22, 2022 @04:51PM (#30041165)
One thing the App Store does is automatically verify the sandbox rules are valid. If they aren’t the app is auto rejected.

How do you think the kernel knows what an application is allowed to do? Seriously, I want you to think of a way that the kernel of any platform could know what facilities an app should have access to.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by petmon on Thursday January 20, 2022 @07:41PM (#30017637)
Did Apple claim it would impact sandboxing? I don't think they did.

A realistic example: today if your iOS app wants to track users, it must go through AppTrackingTransparency.framework, which allows the user to opt-out, and use the device’s advertising identifier which the user may reset.

Of course this cannot be enforced by the kernel; it's enforced by App Store review. Sideloaded apps would presumably not be subject to this rule.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by vineyardmike on Friday January 21, 2022 @02:26PM (#30028706)
> Did Apple claim it would impact sandboxing? I don't think they did.

Apple claims that security would be impacted. They implied that sandbox=app store. Its all FUD marketing, of course, but they heavily implied that the app store review was the safety method for customers.

> if your iOS app wants to track users, it must go through AppTrackingTransparency.framework, which allows the user to opt-out, and use the device’s advertising identifier which the user may reset.

No reason you can't make access to the ATT DeviceID a call to OS. It'd return 000000 in generic case, and prompt the user at OS level to approve. If no approval, then it'd return 0 to app. You can't guarantee what they're doing with the number in-app, but apple barely does that now with review so probably not much loss. Sure some apps could try to access restricted memory or file paths that they aren't supposed to... but thats what the sandbox is for. BUT maybe apple should just kill DeviceId for everyone since im sure most people opted out.

The real loss to apple is that first party apps may have to play by their rules, and lose access to privileged APIs, or open them up to sideloaded apps (since the trust boundary is moved from source of app, to OS calls). They don't want to have to play by their own rules.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by ThatPlayer on Thursday January 20, 2022 @05:28PM (#30016147)
Why couldn't they make the entitlements enforced by the operating system with user prompts, rather than the App Store (or both)? Just because that's how it's done right now doesn't mean we're just flipping a switch and suddenly allowing everything. It's still up to Apple on how they implement it. If that's how they choose to implement it, that's on Apple.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Thursday January 20, 2022 @06:16PM (#30016772)
Prompt based security has been shown to be a bad "solution" over and over again. The primary goal of which degenerates to "blame the user".

Even if you do want to do that, what do you ask the user? Even the basic entitlements often require some amount of knowledge a regular user simply doesn't have. Then the law itself has rules prohibiting restrictions, and I would bet someone will claim dialog based security counts as a restriction.

The law even makes it hard (impossible?) for a platform to protect even a modicum of user privacy. Section 2 (b) 3&4 explicitly prohibits a platform owner from placing restrictions on collection and use of user data.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by ThatPlayer on Thursday January 20, 2022 @06:39PM (#30017045)
As opposed to the current primary goal of giving all the power to Apple to decide what the user gets?

And once again, that's on Apple to implement. If they choose to continue to keep entitlements in the same format, that's on them to explain it to the user. See Android, they handle permissions fine.

That section doesn't place restrictions on the generation of user data, only access to generated data. So don't generate it. In my opinion that's to prevent the platform holder from getting an unfair advantage by keeping the data for themselves. If the user doesn't give permission, the device doesn't generate the data, you're not restricting access to data because it doesn't exist.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Thursday January 20, 2022 @06:53PM (#30017172)
You mean the android that has a massive malware problem? That android?

As for the second bit, the "generated information" is things like device ids, location, etc. The stuff that is necessary for a phone.

But clearly you're of the view that requiring malware, people having to give CC information to innumerable other companies, is a good thing, so I doubt we're ever going to agree on this.

I would rather not have to worry about software installing a persistent crypto miner in the background, and not having to worry about software invading my privacy, than installing whatever mysterious apps aren't currently permitted on the App Store, but you do you.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by ThatPlayer on Thursday January 20, 2022 @07:05PM (#30017294)
No, it's only "generated through an interaction of a covered platform user with the business's products or services". Device ID and Locations aren't exactly generated through an interaction unless the user decides to give it.

Exactly that's your choice. You can choose to continue being on Apple's App Store where they do check for all of these if you want. No one is forcing you to install give that credit card info. Don't take away my choice to choose otherwise. If I want to pay for something with credit card, shouldn't I be allowed to? Or if I wanted to run background processes on my devices?

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Thursday January 20, 2022 @08:52PM (#30018202)
You do have a choice, for all of your examples: you can buy an android device. The iOS ecosystem is successful because that is what many people want.

You want the android experience, but rather than getting an android, you want to force that on the people who prefer the iOS model. They like not having to worry about malware. Currently an iOS user can get all the software that they want from the iOS AppStore, and they don’t have to give random companies their CC#, they don’t have to worry about the app subverting their privacy, because they know apple kills software that does that whenever they find it. This law means they have to deal with multiple different stores, that have no incentive to maintain platform security or user privacy. In fact they’re incentivized to abuse user privacy.

As an iOS user I do not want the android experience. This law basically forces ios to have that. Malware and all.

The only things this does is reduce user security, and give scummy publishers the ability to bypass AppStore rules the protect users (like “you must make discounting if subscriptions trivial”, “you don’t get to run a cruptominer in the background”, etc).

Again, if you want to have the android experience, use android. Literally no one is stopping you.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olyjohn on Thursday January 20, 2022 @10:50PM (#30018911)
Nobody is forcing you to delete the Apple app store and sideload apps. Don't want that experience? Don't sideload apps and don't use alternate app stores. Literally no one is forcing you to install apps another way. Just because the feature is there, doesn't mean you have to use it.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:28AM (#30019912)
Until, for example, google deploys its app through its own App Store, with its own “privacy” rules.

Or epic: another company that has a novel approach to use privacy

Or Facebook

Etc, etc

The only option goes “the AppStore with its various restrictions and protections” or “miscellaneous parties with a vested interest in destroying your privacy and/or complete lack of any review”

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by EMIRELADERO on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:38AM (#30019987)
I think the best solution here would be to outright disallow (by law) companies from manufacturing devices in a way in which they retain more control over them even after the sale to the end user has been completed.

They can have either the same level of control, less, but never more. As it stands right now, Apple and pretty much all Android manufacturers have more control (Yes, I said Android too. Good luck trying to mod the bootloader itself or gaining access to the TEE)

This would be a great thing because that way you don't force any company to modify their app plattform or change their normal user-facing software in any way, yet those who wish so can do with the device whatever they want in the same fashion the manufacturer could before (and even after) the sale.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by bzzzt on Friday January 21, 2022 @08:30AM (#30023201)
This has never been about users having control over their own devices (that ship sailed since proprietary software became a thing). This is about big corps fighting about money trying to influence public opinion and legislation.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by EMIRELADERO on Friday January 21, 2022 @04:42PM (#30030380)
In my opinion, proprietary software doesn't mean you don't have control, as long as you can choose to not run that software and still make use of the hardware. It's not proprietariness that is the issue, it's the forced execution of code the owner does not approve, or even worse, the outright refusal to run the code that the owner does approve of.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by ThatPlayer on Thursday January 20, 2022 @10:38PM (#30018846)
I want a better iOS, not just an Android experience. Those are not the same thing.

> an iOS user can get all the software that they want from the iOS AppStore,

> apple kills software

Which is exactly the problem. That Apple has monopoly power over iOS apps.

> This law means they have to deal with multiple different stores

And in the same way I can choose Android, you can choose to use to continue to use Apple App Store only. Do you think Apple should be the only smartphone manufacturers because you don't want to deal with multiple OSes? No, because you're not being forced to use all of them.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:29AM (#30019917)
Do you think if google makes google calendar only available from the google store that many people will have a choice?
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by ThatPlayer on Friday January 21, 2022 @01:43AM (#30020020)
Yes. You can choose to use Apple Calendar. Can I not go on the Apple App Store and search for Calendar and easily get 10+ results? Are you forced to use Google Calendar? No, but you can choose to.
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by ViViDboarder on Friday January 21, 2022 @11:05AM (#30025403)
> You do have a choice, for all of your examples: you can buy an android device. The iOS ecosystem is successful because that is what many people want.

And if they opened up to additional stores or side loading, you would have a choice to stick with only using the Apple one. That choice doesn’t go away. In fact, the vast majority of Android users aren’t installing side stores because the Play Store has what they want. This is why companies like Spotify still distribute there despite fighting Google on fees.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by hulitu on Friday January 21, 2022 @06:26AM (#30022064)
> It also removes privacy protections: Facebook is required to ask permission to track you on iOS.

I think they are require to ask permission to track you using iOS API. They still track you based on what you access on Facebook.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by olliej on Saturday January 22, 2022 @04:54PM (#30041189)
They can minimally track you - the only technical restrictions apple can do is block device I’d, etc.

The App Store policies ostensibly also prohibit an app from tracking a user via any other means once that user has said no to tracking.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by zepto on Thursday January 20, 2022 @05:40PM (#30016319)
> The OS, of course, could enforce that at a technical level, which weakens the argument significantly.

This is simply not true. An app can lie about what it does, and nothing at a technical level can prevent that.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by echelon on Thursday January 20, 2022 @06:17PM (#30016778)
Apple doesn't have the authority to shut down Meta's business. Only our congress, department of justice, and the governments of foreign markets have this power.

You can measure just how big of a monopoly the iPhone App Store is by how many billions of dollars shift with simple changes to Apple policy.

As much as I hate ads and tracking, it's not Apple's right to be the sole defender of the American people. That's what laws are for. (And besides, Apple is already a direct beneficiary of all that tracking themselves. They're absolutely doing business and making decisions based on your behavior.)

Too much economic activity (50+% of American computing) is happening on iPhone for Apple to be afforded the monopolistic privilege of taxing it all. Apple makes so much money from sales of their remarkable hardware, subscription services, and other incredible and highly profitable business units that they won't be at risk by giving this up.

For the health of the broader industry and the enduring benefits of fair competition, Apple must relinquish the App Store monopoly.

Apple will be more than okay. And they'll shift efforts that used to be spent on protectionism into true innovation.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by phs318u on Thursday January 20, 2022 @07:19PM (#30017429)
> it's not Apple's right to be the sole defender of the American people

They're not. They are (and want to continue to be) the sole defender of Apple iDevice customers. The American people (and in fact anyone else), can choose a non-Apple device, and therefore non-Apple ecosystem.

To me it all boils down to - is the app ecosystem a public commons or a private commons subject to the owner's T&C's? (for clarity - the owner is not the customer. The customer owns the device, but they do not own the ecosystem).

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by majewsky on Thursday January 20, 2022 @08:51PM (#30018191)
If I like neither Apple nor Google, how can I realistically choose a non-Apple non-Google ecosystem? It's getting increasingly difficult to find a bank that does not require one of these 2FA apps that are only available from the Play Store or App Store (and which refuse to work on Android phones with non-standard OSs like Lineage).
Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by zepto on Thursday January 20, 2022 @11:06PM (#30019006)
You can’t, but then you can’t choose to ride a genetically engineered unicorn either.

In either case someone would have to make one first.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by phs318u on Thursday January 20, 2022 @09:38PM (#30018525)
Great question. Believe me, I too want a non-Apple, non-Google solution. Ideally, we'd figure out a way to support a true "public commons" for phone apps, one that also supports an ecosystem of trust/reputation based "security validators/assessors" that provide independent assessments of apps on the public commons. People would be free to ignore these assessments. Or something.

To be honest, I have been recently looking at trying out an Android phone that supports Lineage, but the 2FA issue would be a deal breaker. Is it just some 2FA, or most/all?

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by zepto on Thursday January 20, 2022 @11:03PM (#30018992)
> Apple doesn't have the authority to shut down Meta's business.

This is a silly statement that has nothing to do with reality.

Apple has the right not to be forced to work for Meta.

If people want Meta so much, they can choose an android device, or Meta can license Android themselves.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday January 20, 2022 @05:47PM (#30016422)
> An app can lie about what it does, and nothing at a technical level can prevent that

I was thinking of the tracking restrictions when I wrote this. The OS simply doesn’t give the app the data.

Re:Senate panel approves antitrust bill restricting big tech... by zepto on Thursday January 20, 2022 @05:53PM (#30016510)
It’s much harder than that to prevent fingerprinting, or the use of legitimate APIs for illegitimate purposes.

In any case the idea that you can achieve privacy and security solely through managing APIs is simply false.