News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by pavlov on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:47AM (#29981813)
Note that it's commercial transactions, not your friends & family payments:

"Starting Jan. 1, the IRS said, if a person accrues more than $600 annually in commercial payments on an app like Venmo, then Venmo “must file and furnish a Form 1099-K” for them — reporting on all the commercial income they collected through the app.

"The tax-reporting change only applies to charges for commercial goods or services, not personal charges to friends and family, like splitting a dinner bill."

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by sethhochberg on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:52AM (#29981890)
I try not to be cynical about news coverage, but its so difficult when I see headlines like this that could be so much more clear by simply adding the word "commercial"... several friends have been outraged about changes to how they split monthly expenses with roommates, partners, etc before discovering the reality of the situation - seemingly all because the reporting on it has just been _bad_.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by colpabar on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:58AM (#29981987)
> several friends have been outraged

I don't know if you can even call it cynicism anymore. You just understand the news media business model. Outrageous headline -> more clicks -> more ad revenue. There would simply be less revenue if your friends only had to read one article to get the full picture.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by seibelj on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:13PM (#29982237)
But how will venmo know what is commercial vs. paying rent? If you can mark it as rent and they won’t report, then merchants will just mark everything in such ways. In practice Venmo will just report everything for safety.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by ziml77 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:24PM (#29982436)
It's up to you to the both parties to ensure that the payment is marked correctly. And services like Paypal already have a reason to kick people off who aren't choosing the right transaction type. Paypal doesn't take a fee from friends & family and other gift payments, so it's already in their best interest to find who's abusing it. Also I can't imagine the platform would be liable if they are not the direct cause of misreported transactions.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by pests on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @10:46PM (#29989724)
It's not up to Venmo to report. They are just providing extra information to the IRS to cross check.

Even if you mark it as such in-app; as a business you still have a legal duty to correctly report the income your business made.

Not doing so is already illegal. This just helps the IRS catch this type of fruad easier.

There's no extra taxes or anything - the $600 or more is taxed when reported correctly (as it was before this change, and how amounts under $600 are taxed as well - business income).

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by ketzo on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:34PM (#29982608)
Venmo is already trying to solve this by incentivizing users to flag payments themselves.

When you go to pay someone, there's a pretty big box on the screen that says "Are you paying for goods or services? Protect your purchase here" with a little toggle button, and an explanation that the seller will pay a fee in return for you being able to get a refund.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by reaperducer on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:04PM (#29982084)
Part of the problem is bad headlines. A larger part of the problem is the fact that when people get their news from social media, they read only the headlines and don't bother with the story.

Somehow people have become convinced that reading a stream of half-sentence headlines is the same thing as being informed about current events.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by thepasswordis on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:18PM (#29982332)
Ah, cool cool, so when the IRS accuses you of committing tax fraud because you have $12,000 of undeclared "income" due to your roomate venmoing you their half of the rent, you just have to simply prove to the IRS that you aren't a criminal!
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by secabeen on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:41PM (#29983723)
If your roommate is tagging rent as a "goods or service", you're losing 3% to credit card fees on each of those transactions. I doubt many people are doing that. If you use the "friends and family" transaction, then there is no reporting or fee.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by oh_sigh on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:25PM (#29982447)
Should be fairly easy to show monthly payments in the value of half rent between your roommate and you.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by LorenPechtel on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:06PM (#29983133)
Proving things to the IRS is hard.

Let's go back to the stone age--the 1980s.

IRS to my mother: You didn't report your income from XXXX on your tax return.

Mother to IRS: I've never even heard of XXXX let alone worked for them. I'm retired.

IRS to mother: If you believe the 1099 is wrong talk to the company to get them to fix it.

Mother to IRS: I have been unable to even locate XXXX, please provide me with contact info.

IRS to mother: We are not allowed to give out such information.

I was off at college at that point and don't know how the situation was finally resolved.

When I got a bad 1099 my former employer even sent out a letter explaining the problem (a bogus entry had made it onto all of our 1099s) and how to dispute it with the IRS but in that case they weren't going to be contesting it--the company had already gone under. I'm pretty sure my mother's case was an illegal with a forged SS card who used my mother's information--the company would contest a dispute over a 1099 because by their records it was correct.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by throwawayboise on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:53PM (#29983906)
I've never had a problem ultimately resolving errors by the IRS. I'm sure that's not universally true, and it does take forever.

Respond immediately if you are notified of an issue. If you are actively working to resolve the issue that will help avoid getting in a situation where wages are garnished or liens issued.

Do everything in writing, sent by registered postal mail. Nothing they tell you over the phone is official.

Keep copies of everything related to the issue forever.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by anthonygd on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @03:37PM (#29985383)
All the things you mention are problems. The stakes are high and the chance of a mistake is as well.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by LorenPechtel on Wednesday January 19, 2022 @06:08PM (#30001791)
The problem in my mother's case was that the IRS was legitimately owed money, just not by her. This was before identity theft was a household word.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by neither_color on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:16PM (#29983319)
I believe the objection people have is to ever being put in a situation where you have to explain yourself anyways, even if you're innocent. "Just be polite to policeman, calmly explain the situation and he won't hurt you."

The optimal strategy is to avoid interaction/scrutiny whenever possible because every interaction adds a non-zero chance that someone with a quota/chip on their shoulder/bad day is about to ruin you.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by heyparkerj on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:02PM (#29983068)
"Fairly easy" is never language I would use to describe showing/proving anything to the IRS
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by BitwiseFool on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:00PM (#29982014)
>"Note that it's commercial transactions, not your friends & family payments"

For now. Once established it will be trivially easy to make this apply to all payments.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by pythonaut_16 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:10PM (#29982195)
This is asinine. If the government wants to tax all transactions you make they'll tax all transactions you make. This doesn't make that any easier.

This is the government adding reporting requirements for transactions that are already taxable. It's just covering a gap where transactions weren't being reported.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by BitwiseFool on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:18PM (#29982328)
You can manually specify the type of transaction through Paypal as either commercial or personal. If these payment processors are building an infrastructure to report commercial payments, I posit they can re-use the code for personal transactions as well. It might be as simple as changing a few boolean flags.

Realistically, a few years from now Janet Yellen will testify before congress that people are laundering money by flagging transactions as personal rather than commercial and that the Treasury has the authority to require Venmo, PayPal, and Zelle to report all transactions in order to go after tax evaders and people not paying their fair share. To calm any outrage, maybe they'll raise the threshold to $1,000 as a conciliatory measure.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by pythonaut_16 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:23PM (#29982425)
From a code/business standpoint this absolutely makes things easier to report on personal transactions.

My point was the thing stopping Venmo from reporting on your personal transactions is not technical. As soon as the government tells them they need to report, they will comply.

Your second point is possible, but I don't see how this move really gets us closer to that, other than providing data that could be used to make the argument.

How is this different than the transition to requiring online transactions to charge sales tax?

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by BitwiseFool on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:34PM (#29982604)
>"How is this different than the transition to requiring online transactions to charge sales tax?"

The biggest difference is that we are dealing with a federal entity. When it comes to state sales taxes, that payment is handled by the merchant and I personally don't need to file a return with the City/State/County documenting my transactions and sending a payment or asking for a refund. The businesses themselves need to do this, and that is not unreasonable for a business.

The other difference is that the IRS' system of voluntary compliance is essentially a reconciliation of our own record book and the records that have been submitted to them. They usually match because the average person just pays income tax and that is handled by W-2's and employer withholding. When Venmo, Paypal, and Zelle report that you've done over $600 in transactions, they now have cause to ask you if you should have been paying any capital gains on those transactions. That also requires bookkeeping that you have probably never kept track of. As you probably never bothered to save the receipt on that couch you bought 10 years ago and just sold.

Here is one other scenario, let's say I loan a friend $600 through Venmo. The IRS will only know the amount of the transaction, not the context. If I get audited and tell them it was a loan with no contract, will the IRS accept that as proof it was a temporary loan and not a gift? Will they suspect I actually bought drugs? And so on. While the IRS has a record of all transactions, they will want to know what kind of transactions were occurring and will want to know why the numbers in your 1040 don't match what they are expecting from you.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by whodunnit on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:29PM (#29984457)
It’s not about taxes it’s about power and control.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by stjohnswarts on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @08:36PM (#29988750)
Exactly, they pass loopholes and exclusions for the wealthy who own 90% of the wealth in the top 5% or so of the population and throw scraps to fight over to us peasants and then tax those scraps hoping to imprison us and show us how insignificant we are.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by csomar on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @02:00PM (#29984023)
You have to be quite gullible to fall for that. If the government were to rely on people honesty, then why do this in the first place? If you were to mark these transactions, then you'd also include them in your tax return.

This is just to get their foot in the door. Once it's there, it's much easier to expand the surveillance activity.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by voakbasda on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:54AM (#29981920)
The fun here stems from the fact that many small business owners use the friend-to-friend side of these payment services. These services either will be cracking down on business use of those accounts (and thus push people off their platform), or they will be forced to report all transactions across all accounts.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by reaperducer on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:07PM (#29982151)
The fun here stems from the fact that many small business owners use the friend-to-friend side of these payment services.

Unpopular opinion, but I'm OK with eliminating this loophole.

I went to a record shop a couple of weeks ago and when I went to pay, the guy didn't take Apple Pay. Or any kind of credit card. All he took was Venmo and Facebook. Fortunately, I had cash. But if you can't even shell out $5 for a Square reader to take credit cards, you're not a business — you're a hobby.

And yes, I have owned small businesses before. Three times. Each time, I took credit cards as payment. It's known as "cost of doing business." No different than paying to put up a sign, or renting a storefront.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by nborwankar on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:15PM (#29982279)
Sometimes vendors don’t offer credit cards because their own credit is not good and they can’t get a merchant account. Or if they can it’s with huge per-transaction charges. This is particularly problematic when starting out and not having enough sales to get better rates Eventually when/if they grow they qualify. With the emergence of Venmo et al the chronically small vendor may never be motivated to get credit cards.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by LorenPechtel on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:26PM (#29983488)
For low-volume use the cost is a noticeable percent. If the lost business due to not taking cards is less than what you would pay in transaction fees it's the right decision.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by pythonaut_16 on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:13PM (#29982238)
That would constitute tax fraud right? And intentionally bypassing the reporting built into the platform surely increases your culpability.

If you're doing a relatively low volume you might get away with it, but you are committing a crime.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by voakbasda on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:55PM (#29982941)
Not a crime, as long as they are reporting the income on their tax returns.

However, it is definitely against the terms of use and will get their accounts suspended. As PayPal has shown, they might also confiscate any money left in the accounts.

Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by CheezeIt on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:49PM (#29982852)
They’re bypassing the fees, primarily, not the reporting.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by wayoutthere on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:52PM (#29982889)
Or maybe the government should keep their grubby mitts off my money until they’re willing to go after the billionaire class. But the IRS only prosecuted about 1500 tax fraud cases last year, so you’re probably not going to jail. Enough stuff in this world is illegal that a little cash under the table is no big deal.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by MattGaiser on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:00PM (#29982010)
The services don't seem too concerned about small businesses abusing the friend to friend options for their own purposes, so I can easily see it being the latter.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by ketzo on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @12:35PM (#29982632)
Venmo, at least, is absolutely concerned about it. The app really tries to get you to flag payments as "business" any time you're paying someone.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by voakbasda on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @01:01PM (#29983060)
If you pay someone as a business, they eat the transaction fees. If they have you pay as a “friend”, then the customer pays additional fees, increasing the total cost of the transaction. Any business doing that is breaking the terms of use. I can imagine it only a matter of time until they start suspending customer accounts for not flagging such transactions.
Re:Venmo, PayPal and Zelle must report $600 in transactions ... by bitxbitxbitcoin on Tuesday January 18, 2022 @11:51AM (#29981869)
That means we will have to see how hard they crack down on f&f payments which are default in certain trading circles with a separate reputation system to manage fraud.