I just try and avoid the whole word nowadays. The Berlin interpretation was a fairly decent guideline when there were just a bunch of turn-based tile-based dungeon crawlers with randomized levels, many of them with text-based graphics and/or developed under early free software models. Then Diablo came along, brought a real time aspect into it.
Personally, I think the procedural generation aspect is overrated when it comes to the genre definition. Say you fork Rogue and hardcode the level layouts, item and enemy placements and so on. It would probably be an inferior game, but still in the same genre of game, I think. At least the game would change less than if you made it real time or somehow removed the grid lock.
I tend to say something like "turn-based dungeon crawler". This way I can talk about games that are like Nethack or DCSS without having to clarify I don't mean platformers, twin stick shooters or -- god forbid -- deck building games of all things. I like action games just fine, often more than turn-based dungeon crawlers, but the itch they scratch is a different one.
> I tend to say something like "turn-based dungeon crawler".
Like Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder, and MegaTen, got it. (Wait...)
I was under the impression that BI was a few years older than it is, so thanks for making me check. Actually, the fact it was made so recently and by people so familiar with the diversity of the genre makes me less forgiving of its weird specifics and priorities.
I do not and never did think Diablo single-handedly upended the definition, but I do believe it (and its sequel):
1) Took so many of its design elements from roguelikes that in the context of its time, it was not unreasonable to consider it a new take on that genre's formula
2) Was a major, if not definitive influence on many of the roguelites that would follow afterwards
Actually, if Hades and Angband were both called "diablolikes" instead, there would probably be much less fighting over it. ("Less" not implying none. Genres can always be fought over and naming genres after specific works rarely works well anyway)
As for Wizardry, EotB, Megami Tensei, I genuinely think they look closer to a quintessential roguelike than a lot of roguelites do. If those are the smart-ass edge cases, I'm pretty happy with my wording. I didn't even intend the description to be synonymous with roguelike, but "turn based dungeon crawler" seems to include almost all games I consider to be true roguelikes and less games I don't consider roguelikes than the most actual attempted definitions of roguelike I've seen around.
If it turns out that first-person dungeon RPGs with combat-specific interface are actually an especially prevalent subset of the turn-based dungeon crawler category, I might have to start differentiating the ones with top down perspective or non-modal gameplay. So far I haven't found that to be an issue.
People who are unfamiliar with the terms just end up using them interchangeably.
Anyway, I only play nethack on public servers or using the nethack hearse tool, so I don't 'progress' by using my own bones files. Maybe if you play purely locally, you can view your own bones files as a form of progression.
(That's assuming you don't do some degenerate play like get a bunch of loot, run back to level 2, and die purposefully. At that point you might as well savescum.)
In most games bones also represent a significant risk. The ghosts fight you, the items come cursed, etc.
I got really confused when people called Spelunky a roguelike. If my friend called on the phone and asked me what Spelunky was like, I'd say "A Rick Dangerous style platformer with procedurally generated levels" - and he'd have a pretty good idea of what I meant. If I said "It's a roguelike" he'd probably think I was talking about Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, or ADOM or something.
So any game with a random map lacking a progress-system is rogue-like? Like Civilization, Sim City, Star Craft? No limit on the genre or type of interaction?
> Some people call these games "roguelites"
Rogue-lites have a progress-system that grows outside the sessions. So every run has meaning beyond the run itself.
Those games don't have permadeath. Permadeath means you can't recover from mistakes by loading a save file.
By this definition, Minesweeper is a Roguelike. :-)
Minesweeper ticks a lot of the Berlin interpretation boxes.
People yelling about how it needs to be a turn based dungeon crawling RPG to count as a roguelike are like those dudes still mad about how eSports aren’t even actual sports.
Loop Hero, FTL, etc are examples
I would contend that any definition of a rougelike that excludes rogue is overly specific.
Procedural generation and permadeath are a perfect combination. Permadeath is a powerful mechanic, but by itself, it is very frustrating, because if you die, it forces you start over and redo everything you have done. Procedural generation solves the problem by making every game unique. We probably can add a form of character building and progression to the definition, otherwise death would be meaningless and it would be more like a traditional arcade game.
There are other aspects to traditional roguelikes: turn-based, dungeon crawlers, resource management, hack-and-slash, etc... But none of these aspect synergize as well as procedural generation and permadeath, that's why I consider it the true defining feature.