News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by rory on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:05PM (#29797803)
Fairly startling stuff, in my opinion.

> Over several generations, there is no doubt that dysgenic selection lowered the quality of genes for intelligence and increased migration had an adverse effect.

> Looming over all is their message that the pool of those who reach the top level of cognitive performance is being decimated: fewer and fewer people attain the formal level at which they can think in terms of abstractions and develop their capacity for deductive logic and systematic planning.

So, as often as we hear the joke, is Idiocracy actually happening?

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by fluidcruft on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:06PM (#29798653)
My mother-in-law recently retired as a public school teacher. She recently stated that it's her opinion that the quality of teaching has gone to the toilet over the decades. Her explanation is simple: smart women don't go into teaching anymore because they have vastly better options than having to chose between nursing vs teaching. Something to consider since labor can only be as good as the pool of candidates allows.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by bb101 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:29PM (#29798974)
Perhaps as technology progresses, we'll see the equivalent of Neal Stephenson's Young Lady's Illustrated Primer from his book The Diamond Age. The primer is an AI-backed story interface, designed to teach and entertain a child whilst also becoming more complicated as the child ages.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/827.The_Diamond_Age

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by Retric on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:15PM (#29797949)
Idiocracy ignores what happens at the other end of the intelligence scale. Being 4 standard deviations above the norm may be detrimental, but being 4 standard deviations below the norm is a much larger hindrance.

On top of this the ratios change as the environment changes. Studies after WWII found a positive correlation between reproduction and intelligence though that seems to have swapped more recently.

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by all2 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:19PM (#29798004)
Yes. Some sectors of society argue that this is on purpose. The Coddling of the American Mind talks about a sliver of this. You can find articles [0] that talk about infiltration of ideologies that destroy people's reasoning capabilities. You can find quotes from those in the US education's past [1], [2] that talk about their vision for students of the future. All that to say, there's a sector of the conservative right that sees something sinister and they've been shouting about it for a half century.

[0] https://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldviewpedia/transcript/j...

[1] https://steelonsteel.com/quotes-from-progressive-elites/

[2] https://nwvstore.com/product/weapons-of-mass-instruction/

---

Some quotes for the curious:

From [0]:

    John Dewey, Karl Marx, Aldous Huxley, B. F. Skinner, and Benjamin Bloom were interested in a student’s academic achievement only if it would in some way benefit the State. Before a student's cognitive knowledge could be used to its full potential, however, the student's attitudes, values, feelings, and beliefs must conform to that of the State. In his book, My Pedagogic Creed, John Dewey explains: 

    "I believe the true center of correlation on the school subjects is not science, nor literature, nor history, nor geography, but the child's social activities. . . . I believe that the school is primarily a social institution. . . . The teacher's business is simply to determine, on the basis of the larger experience and riper wisdom, how the discipline of life shall come to the child. . . . All these questions of the grading of the child and his promotion should be determined by reference to the same standard. Examinations are of use only so far as they test the child's fitness for social life."
From [1]:

    Education is thus a most powerful ally of humanism, and every American public school is a school of humanism. What can the theistic Sunday schools, meeting for an hour once a week, teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?
    -Charles.F. Potter: (1930)

    In the New Order, Socialism will triumph by first capturing the culture via infiltration of schools, universities, churches and the media by transforming the consciousness of society…
    -Antonio Gramsci (1915)
From [2]:

    John Taylor Gatto’s Weapons of Mass Instruction focuses on mechanisms of familiar schooling which cripple imagination, discourage critical thinking, and create a false view of learning as a by-product of rote-memorization drills. Gatto’s earlier book, Dumbing Us Down, put the now-famous expression of the title in common use worldwide. Weapons of Mass Instruction promises to add another chilling metaphor to the brief against schooling.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by fallingknife on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:42PM (#29798335)
> there's a sector of the conservative right that sees something sinister and they've been shouting about it for a half century.

And I thought they were nuts the whole time. Until the left started to try to get rid of advanced math classes.

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by nonameiguess on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:27PM (#29798129)
Why on earth would this have a global impact? US education policy only directly affects 3/8 of a percent of the world population (less really, since this assumes away the existence of private and charter schools) and it also varies by state.

Also, according to the abstract, the US actually sustained positive gains longer than other OECD nations, except South Korea.

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by all2 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:36PM (#29798241)
> Why on earth would this have a global impact?

The United States has been (and will be for another two or three years) the cultural center of the world. We export to everyone. That includes our mode of thinking and the mode of thought we teach our children.

> Also, according to the abstract, the US actually sustained positive gains longer than other OECD nations, except South Korea.

The oldest data presented was from the mid 70s. We'd need data going back to the turn of the last century to get a good feel for how IQ has relative to education policy changes. The time-scale they claim is ~110 years since education policy in the US started changing.

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by Apocryphon on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:38PM (#29798280)
The U.S. exports norms in many sectors but not all. How many other nations are using the imperial system instead of metric? How many other nations are following our approaches to education, judging by how they're trouncing us in the PISA scores?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-student...

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by CheezeIt on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:27PM (#29798941)
To understand the quality of our education system, you have to account for race. https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-new-2018-pisa-school-test-sco...
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by tester756 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:52PM (#29798468)
>US education policy only directly affects 3/8 of a percent of the world population

3/8? not 3/80?

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by spacemadness on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:35PM (#29798240)
Because some people on HN will use any excuse to post right-wing propaganda.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by all2 on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:37PM (#29798263)
I'm curious as to how quoting people is propaganda? In essence my goal was to say "this is what a sector of the population thinks, here's some quotes showing why they think that".

Surely there is merit in sharing conclusions and reasoning for those conclusions?

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by Apocryphon on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:21PM (#29798842)
What puts these personages in the same sector other than some superficial correlation in views as illustrated by pithy quotes rather than actual policies advanced? To group Dewey, Marx, and Huxley is completely fatuous, as well as pairing humanism with socialism. And what is the conclusion based on these quotes? This is begging the question. As Voltaire said, "A witty saying proves nothing."
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by all2 on Wednesday January 05, 2022 @11:39AM (#29811222)
I've been pondering your reply since I saw it yesterday. I'm bothered a great deal by "bumper sticker politics", or the "reducto ad absurdum" that seems to have taken over most political conversations.

Aside from a master's thesis, I'm unsure as to how I ought to address the philosophical claims made by the above authors.

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by Apocryphon on Thursday January 06, 2022 @06:18PM (#29832036)
Then it sounds like there's no point to be made, you're just cherry-picking not only quotes, but cherry-picking random historical figures, in the hopes that the reader will concoct a point. This isn't even bumper sticker politics. This is Rorschach test politics.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by all2 on Monday January 10, 2022 @12:10PM (#29877943)
This sounds like you are attempting to make me responsible for the conclusions of others. While the thesis sounds interesting, I'm not in a position (either time or interest) to try and expand on the thesis that many others have set forth. I'm not cherry-picking (it wasn't my intent, at the very least), only reporting on the conclusions reported by others.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by Apocryphon on Monday January 10, 2022 @12:13PM (#29877983)
But there are no conclusions mentioned here at all, only disparate quotes hinting there is some point. You clearly shared these links and quotes to make some point, thus it is on you to elucidate, or otherwise the sharing was for naught.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by karaterobot on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:54PM (#29798503)
According to the article, the U.S. is one of the countries where IQ is NOT declining, but continues to increase. South Korea is another example.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by Apocryphon on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:36PM (#29798249)
Seems like an odd charge to level at Huxley, seeing as how Brave New World's whole dystopia describes a dumbed-down civilization helmed by a totalitarian state.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by dmcgee on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @07:18PM (#29803002)
I'll ignore everyone else here, but the comment on Dewey from that quote is absurd and a total mischaracterization (no doubt to discredit him because of ideological bias). Ironically, Dewey was the champion and creator of child centered, project based, and competency oriented education. Nothing could be further from either destroying people's reasoning capabilities, or deliberately undermining a person's potential, creativity and intelligence in service of the State. Dewey's rolling over in his grave!
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by gopalv on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:25PM (#29798094)
> is Idiocracy actually happening?

The way in which things are trending, an Idiocracy is unlikely because of an AGI singularity.

That even if we might all descend into idiots, we won't be running the world much before that happens.

To quote Douglas Adams - "There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by mellosouls on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:41PM (#29798316)
The way in which things are trending, an Idiocracy is unlikely because of an AGI singularity.

As discussed in this forum many times, there has been no obvious progress towards AGI.

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by PeterisP on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @02:00PM (#29798571)
IMHO there are two distinct paths towards AGI. One is understanding intelligence - I believe that if we "just" knew how to make the "brain software" (and we're really far from that), our current compute power could support many human-or-higher-power AIs at a relatively cheap price. And the second is pure raw brute force, either through simulation-without-understanding of brains, or perhaps it will turn out that sufficient intelligence may be reachable simply through a sufficiently large critical mass of e.g. simulated cortical columns. We're also really far from that, however, one aspect is that the latter approach is progressing even if there's literally zero progress in understanding intelligence and AI; as long as we can sustain an exponential increase of FLOPS/$, we will eventually reach it.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by georgeecollins on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:31PM (#29798185)
I guess if you think about it like that then you really don't need to think about any problem in the future because the singularity will solve it for us. People also think the rapture is around the corner. I can't predict or discount either but I do notice a similarity.
Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by viscanti on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:27PM (#29798126)
> The way in which things are trending, an Idiocracy is unlikely because of an AGI singularity.

The way in which things are trending, an AGI singularity is unlikely because of the IQ decline over time.

Re:IQ decline and Piaget: Does the rot start at the top? [pdf] by kryptonomist on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @01:08PM (#29797857)
Someone told that Idiocracy was actually a documentary.