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Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by PKop on Saturday January 01, 2022 @10:57PM (#29765674)
This is exactly why the mass delusion propagated by Elon that Tesla's have full self driving is terrifying, and why "self driving" in general is a sinister lie that endangers the public.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ricardobayes on Sunday January 02, 2022 @04:59AM (#29767353)
After working in the industry, I can safely say self-driving is a massively profitable lie. It can work in limited instances, but I don't think we'll have full self driving aka level 5 in urban environments until infrastructure changes. You simply need 5G/V2X for that. Just relying on cameras will not work. On that page, I have my concerns about EVs in general, who knows what the long-term health effects are for sitting on top of a HV battery and being surrounded by that electro-smog.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by gspr on Sunday January 02, 2022 @05:34AM (#29767544)
> On that page, I have my concerns about EVs in general, who knows what the long-term health effects are for sitting on top of a HV battery and being surrounded by that electro-smog.

Say what? Is this some kind of industry joke that I'm not getting?

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ricardobayes on Sunday January 02, 2022 @05:45AM (#29767627)
All I'm saying is there's a possibility of discovering the power electronics affecting us in an adverse way. Similarly how we thought lead, asbesthos, radium were harmless at first.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by rhn_mk1 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @06:00AM (#29767714)
Lead is a bad example, unless you mean long forgotten times. Even Romans knew:

> The Romans were aware that lead could cause serious health problems

https://archive.epa.gov/epa/aboutepa/lead-poisoning-historic...

Asbestos, likewise, was being used 80 years after the discovery of ill effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_asbestos_disease_medic...

Radium's danger was known 2 years after its discovery according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium#Hazards

I think your examples support the thesis that we're actually decent at discovering harmful effects, but we don't mind them.

But they don't support the thesis that we might find something unpleasant about power electronics that we don't yet know about.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by corin_ on Sunday January 02, 2022 @07:45AM (#29768293)
> I think your examples support the thesis that we're actually decent at discovering harmful effects, but we don't mind them.

I think it's less that we don't mind them, and more that it unfortunately is a slow process to go from first research realising there's a problem to general scientific consensus to then one or both of public awareness becoming big enough that companies have to respond and stop choosing profit over safety, or government concern needs to become great enough to enforce it through regulation.

I think we're seeing it with plastics at the moment, it seems very likely that in 50 years we'll a) know much more about the harm micro-plastics do and b) look back at now and think "there was enough evidence, why didn't they ban it immediately?" Well, because it's really convenient and cheap, companies don't want to give up profits, people like me don't want to give up convenient packaging etc, and governments don't want to piss off consumers and businesses at the same time by banning it too fast. Similar story for the climate crisis.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by rhn_mk1 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:23AM (#29769391)
We already know that microplastics are dangerous (BPA, leeching of random compounds, plankton overpopulation, animals with stuffed stomachs), there's no need to wait 50 years more.

Otherwise I agree with what you say, and I'd say it agrees with what I said: we're pretty good at detecting harmful effects, and good at not taking them into account.

But that's not what the parent implied.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by vianneychevalie on Sunday January 02, 2022 @05:08PM (#29774526)
I don’t think you’ve followed completely the phases that need to be gone through: the fact that microplastics are still being produced is the most straightforward demonstration that can be had on the fact that companies are still to be forced by the general public to stop producing them
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ricardobayes on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:21PM (#29772566)
Yeah but we happily painted our walls with it even just 20 years ago.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by quartesixte on Sunday January 02, 2022 @06:40AM (#29767923)
I’d be less worried about long term effects and more worried about the fact that lithium-ion is very flammable. It’s bad enough that airlines ban lithium of quantities no more than a single smartphone from entering the cargo bay of a passenger airliner.

And then you have an entire car’s worth just strapped to the bottom of your chassis.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by eatbitseveryday on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:17AM (#29769335)
> more worried about the fact that lithium-ion is very flammable

As is standard fuel used in combustion engines (which you know) so how does the argument of flammability hold stronger here?

Ford Pinto blew up due to tank puncture during an accident.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by kortex on Sunday January 02, 2022 @10:45AM (#29769605)
Metal fires (class D) are much harder to fight than petroleum fires (class B). They can burn way hotter, reignite after seemingly going out, and of course react to water to produce hydrogen.

Current fire fighter directives for putting out BEVs is either dump a loader bucket of sand on it (which most don't have yet), or drag it some place safe and let it burn out.

Also gasoline just sits there until ignited. Lithium battery packs can have various failure modes which send them into thermal runaway. Chevy Bolt EVs are being recalled en masse and owners told not to charge overnight or in a garage, least it go off unattended.

I'm very pro EV but lithium is spicy.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ricardobayes on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:24PM (#29772613)
I'm also very pro EV. Working in self-driving and hybrids/EVs driving around in prototype vehicles I often found the on-board GPS jammed. I just found it unnerving to drive around in a vehicle emitting such strong EMF even on-board devices go haywire. That made me think.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by quartesixte on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:52PM (#29772984)
As the sibling post said, lithium fires are a completely different class and beast than a petroleum fire.

Material science improvements won’t overcome the fundamental fact that the third atomic element on the periodic table just really wants to light things on fire.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ricardobayes on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:19PM (#29772533)
I'd argue those issues are very well researched and material science fixed these.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by dd36 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @06:12AM (#29767782)
Worse than inhaled gasoline and diesel exhaust? Doubtful em radiation is worse than particulate matter.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by gspr on Sunday January 02, 2022 @12:29PM (#29770929)
This line of reasoning makes littke sense. The fact that certain things were incorrectly labeled as harmless should definitely inform how we go about determining id something is harmful. But the leap that we should expect harmless-seeming things to be harmful is unhelpful.

It's not far removed from flatearthers/qanon/911-truthers/moonhoax people defending theie stance by naming conspiracies thought false at the time but later revealed as true. Such events, and your speculations, are merely examples of the fact that we're sometimes wrong. Not that we should live our lives expecting that every accepted fact is wrong.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by bradleyjg on Sunday January 02, 2022 @08:26AM (#29768517)
> Just relying on cameras will not work.

If it’s good enough for us (two small cameras and two microphones all mounted right next to each other) why is it inherently infeasible for a computer?

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by dividedbyzero on Sunday January 02, 2022 @08:47AM (#29768663)
Those cameras are backed by processing that's so far ahead of anything silicon can do it's not even funny. It's not inherently infeasible, but it seems computers will need a huge leap in certain capabilities before they will be able to act as a drop-in replacement for human drivers.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ricardobayes on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:17PM (#29772500)
I find that argument being thrown around once in a while, but let me ask you this. Why are we spending billions of dollars in research that we can vaguely hope to reach human perception levels in one distant day. This whole thing is just not worth it. That's why I said especially for dense urban traffic driving, we need extra sensing, and need from the environment so it can help the car. Imagine if the car knew there is nothing coming from a junction we don't need to stop all the way etc.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by bradleyjg on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:17PM (#29776570)
I don’t object to providing extra data to self driving cars, I’m just a teeny bit confused (as I think many people outside of ML are) about why certain problems are much harder than others for AI.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by kxrm on Sunday January 02, 2022 @04:19PM (#29774034)
I think there is more senses being used in driving then just eyes and ears. I am not the best driver in the world, but I use a lot of senses while driving, abnormal vibrations that are felt cause me to be more alert. Constant awareness of hills and road conditions are felt.

Saying it's just cameras and microphones vastly over simplifies what driving involves for a human.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ozfive on Sunday January 02, 2022 @04:35PM (#29774189)
It's interesting that you talk about using more senses while driving. I always crack the window to listen to the road noise as it helps me guage what the other cars are doing and has helped several times in avoiding collisions with other drivers that weren't paying attention since I could hear the change in noise within the standard noise of the road.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by CamperBob2 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @03:20PM (#29773335)
who knows what the long-term health effects are for sitting on top of a HV battery and being surrounded by that electro-smog.

A fellow named Planck knew, when he used the expression E=hv to describe the difference between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation. You just missed class that day, I imagine. Fortunately it's never too late to learn.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ricardobayes on Sunday January 02, 2022 @03:38PM (#29773577)
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by CamperBob2 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @03:48PM (#29773696)
Ah, the ubiquitous rebuttal, "Here's a link to an unreproducible result with pubmed in the URL. You lose, sir." I know when I'm beat!
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ricardobayes on Sunday January 02, 2022 @04:14PM (#29773979)
You are right, the study is inconclusive.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by u801e on Sunday January 02, 2022 @12:19AM (#29766066)
The premise behind self driving cars that can handle most situations themselves relies on the assumption that a human operator is paying attention and can take over in situations the computer can't handle. I'm not a pilot, but it's likely that assumption can hold while flying at cruising altitude, but not so much when driving in various inconsistent road and traffic conditions.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by PKop on Sunday January 02, 2022 @01:05AM (#29766291)
>human operator is paying attention

Think of how silly this is though. You offload driving to a car, then...demand passenger give absolute attention every second that car operates itself. For one, this is a pointless tool if you have to monitor it all the time. For another, it is impossible that humans will be able to focus their attentions fully when they aren't really doing anything to drive the car. The better self-driving gets (say, safe and effective 99.999% or any incremental level higher), the less the human monitor will actually be watching. Thus the more likely any error will be catastrophic.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by cm2187 on Sunday January 02, 2022 @06:59AM (#29768026)
My own experience is that I tend to snooze as a car passenger on a long trip while I do not when I am the one driving. No need for speculation, I know I would be incapable of taking over on a short notice if the car does something bad.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by rocketbop on Sunday January 02, 2022 @09:02AM (#29768751)
> My own experience is that I tend to snooze as a car passenger on a long trip while I do not when I am the one driving.

I would hope not. :)

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by onethought on Sunday January 02, 2022 @03:08AM (#29766807)
It doesn’t follow that errors will be catestrophic. It could be the car just fails to handle edge case situations and just stops… granted on a highway that’s bad but everywhere else, that’s a hassle to traffic at worst. Also highway full self driving is much closer to being a solved problem.

Even the failures you see in the beta of Tesla FSD, aren’t catestrophic. The worst I’ve seen is a curb strikes in terms of actual “accidents”

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by tjoff on Sunday January 02, 2022 @03:44AM (#29766991)
What you are describing is level 4. And if tesla were anywhere near that that would be freaking brilliant.

Tesla FSD has many deaths and countless serious accidents under it's belt. Which doesn't necessarily have to be that bad, but as expected a computer doesn't make the same kind of mistakes that a human does and the kind of mistakes that tesla does doesn't inspire confidence (but rather nightmare fuel that you just can't wake up from).

They should be banned until they have level 4 and take responsibility for their cars actions. Blaming it on a human driver and calling it a day is ludicrous.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by yissp on Sunday January 02, 2022 @11:42AM (#29770228)
> a computer doesn't make the same kind of mistakes that a human does

I think this is particularly problematic because with other humans, we can at least develop a sense of what types of mistakes they tend to make and try to adjust our driving accordingly. Things like not driving in another person's blind-spot, etc. but also more subtle stuff. I feel like there a sort of hive-mind that develops amongst drivers and probably makes things safer than they would otherwise be.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by onethought on Monday January 03, 2022 @01:28AM (#29777970)
Sorry. I haven’t seen any evidence of anything you said.

There have been 0 deaths from FSD and as far as I’m aware only 1 crash. Do you mean autopilot? Or navigate on auto pilot?

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by dncornholio on Sunday January 02, 2022 @05:13AM (#29767425)
I just looked up a random video of someone testing FSD 10.8 and in the first few minutes, it failed to signal before changing lanes and it almost caused an accident. All the while the driver is saying how good it is and how comfortable he is.. The car drives not smoothly at all and does random braking when around pedestrians.

The car also features a yoke instead of a wheel. Which makes holding the yoke while autopilot is driving almost impossible.

Autonomous driving is a mess.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by onethought on Monday January 03, 2022 @01:29AM (#29777985)
So my point exactly… it’s not catastrophic… it’s just shitty.

“Nearly accident” is the same as “not an accident” and definitely not: catastrophic .

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by PKop on Monday January 03, 2022 @11:25AM (#29782420)
>it’s not catastrophic… it’s just shitty

This is because drivers are giving 100% attention to monitoring the car in these scenarios. So again, this means the tool is useless (right now it is), or if the driver stops paying attention and becomes an unfocused passenger (the actual point of self-driving) then the tool becomes absurdly deadly.

Everywhere along this spectrum, as attention declines, catastrophic risk goes up. Self driving is vapor ware at best, a scandal at worst. It's not going to end well.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by lolc on Monday January 03, 2022 @07:22AM (#29780033)
Funny how the discussion of a serious system failure in aviation leads to a comment about how "it's just shitty" in a car.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by onethought on Monday January 03, 2022 @08:23AM (#29780518)
Given one happens at ~50km/h at 0 altitude vs ~400km/h at 30,000ft... makes sense.

Just like bumping into someone while walking is way less serious than bumping into another car while driving.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by PKop on Monday January 03, 2022 @11:28AM (#29782451)
You just keep adding nonsense to the discussion. Is self driving going to be limited to 50km/h? No it's not, so what are you talking about?

Is crashing your car at 50km/h not potentially deadly or dangerous? Of course it is. So, what are you talking about?

When planes typically fly in the air, how many other planes are nearby? 0

When cars drive on the road, how many other cars or pedestrians are nearby? Often many

Just because planes get completely obliterated at the speeds they travel doesn't mean cars going much slower in accidents come out unscathed. This is like elementary school stuff here.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by onethought on Monday January 03, 2022 @03:52PM (#29786705)
Apologises for triggering you here. I’m not meaning to troll, or add nonsense.

I agree that there is a lot more going on with cars, as traffic and road conditions vary more than air traffic and sky conditions.

But my response is the failures aren’t that bad in the car world. Autopilot (ie lane keep and cruise control) have been probably safer than human drivers. Navigate on autopilot is very stable, but limited to highway… that’s why I referred to the lower speed, because high speed is closer to solved. The hard part of full self driving, is city streets, which is typically lower speeds. The failure mode of FSD is typically for it to just stop… I have never seen a single failure where it full speeds into another object. This did seem to happen sometimes in autopilot in the past, but not FSD

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by lolc on Monday January 03, 2022 @07:54PM (#29789537)
> I have never seen a single failure where it full speeds into another object.

What do you make of this near-miss posted recently? Allegedly, FSD was on when the car veered into the lane of an oncoming car.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/re7vxr/fsd...

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by onethought on Tuesday January 04, 2022 @08:25AM (#29794411)
Agree that isn’t good. And definitely looked like it would collide. I guess if you agree to sign up to train the NN you need to accept the fact it’s going to do this stuff.

As an aside, it seems strange to me that the high beams switch Off as they approach the oncoming car. Seems the driver disabled them… auto disabled would have meant they detected the car, which then seems unlikely they’d move into it’s path. But very hard to judge off camera alone… they might not even be on FSD. Shrug.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by dncornholio on Tuesday January 11, 2022 @08:02AM (#29890983)
Where do I sign up for not wanting oncoming Tesla's to take my lane? Where do the pedestrians sign up for not having a Tesla drive over their feet?
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by hoppla on Sunday January 02, 2022 @05:40AM (#29767591)
I almost crashed into a tesla on the highway when I changed lane right behind a Tesla. The Tesla was going much faster than me, and when I changed to its lane a bit too close, it started breaking for no reason, forcing me to jump on the brakes as well. I do not believe it was the driver, but the automatic brake assist that did not like me coming in too close…
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by VBprogrammer on Sunday January 02, 2022 @06:39AM (#29767921)
You understand that you made the mistake in that case right?
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by ddalex on Sunday January 02, 2022 @07:36AM (#29768227)
why do you say that? sounds like he was braked-checked by the tesla

of course, in a large sense, the one that hits from behind is at fault, but brake-checking is problematic

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by macintux on Sunday January 02, 2022 @08:29AM (#29768544)
Problematic and completely unexpected. No one speeding past you is going to brake check you for moving into their lane, so this kind of behavior from a computer is inevitably going to lead to accidents.
Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by mbreese on Sunday January 02, 2022 @02:09PM (#29772382)
You can’t know what is in front of the other car or why the Tesla braked. It could have been passing a slower car or truck (likely given the situation as described). If that car swerved a bit into the Tesla’s lane, braking could have been the right choice.

The car behind is always responsible for maintaining distance.

Realistically, if the tesla felt squeezed by a car it was passing, going a bit onto the shoulder would have been what I would have expected from a human driver. But no auto steering, tesla or otherwise, is going to do that.

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by useerup on Sunday January 02, 2022 @01:52PM (#29772156)
> of course, in a large sense, the one that hits from behind is at fault

I don't know where you live, but where I live (Denmark) brake-checking is a serious traffic offense which can lead to loss of license. While the driver behind has to keep distance, you cannot brake for non-traffic reasons. I.e. you cannot simply brake-check someone on the freeway because you think the driver behind you is driving too close (also a serious offense).

Re:Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident af... by onethought on Sunday January 02, 2022 @12:19AM (#29766069)
I think that is not really related. Following a “guidance system” that’s using gps (and altitude in the planes case) is very different from having a neural net interpret the surroundings visually and make decisions based on that.

I don’t know where/why you are attributing sinister motives here… it seems a very understandable motive to make transport better.