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Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by danlugo92 on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:24AM (#29577846)
The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats.

Imagine a future with Russia in the EU, best timeline.

Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by abcd_f on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:47AM (#29578017)
Russia doesn’t give a fuck about Ukraine for as long as it’s not in Nato. Just like the US didn’t like Russian military presence on Cuba, they don’t want the US presence in Ukraine.

It’s all fundamentally dead simple. Russia views Ukraine as a buffer country between itself and the West and will do anything to keep it that way.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by sofixa on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:30AM (#29578462)
> Just like the US didn’t like Russian military presence on Cuba, they don’t want the US presence in Ukraine.

Which was, funnily, in response to US military presence in Turkey, which is still there. It's understandable that Russia doesn't want to see itself surrounded by "enemies".

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by dragonwriter on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:48AM (#29578655)
> Russia doesn’t give a fuck about Ukraine

They should probably stop invading more and more of it over time, then.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by Nasreddin_Hodja on Friday December 17, 2021 @02:38PM (#29597327)
> They should probably stop invading more and more of it over time, then.

They should do it for the sake of security of Europe. Ukraine is not capable of controlling "own" territory.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by MagnumOpus on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:51AM (#29578051)
That's falsified by Russia's ongoing metre-by-metre invasion of Georgia[0]. Not a NATO member, and won't become one either. Still Vova Putin saw some Lebensraum and decided it's his for the taking.

[0] https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/humanrights/2019/02/05/russias-new-s...

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by drran on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:28AM (#29578440)
RF has border with USA.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:03AM (#29578172)
> Russia doesn’t give a fuck about Ukraine

Their actions from 2014 until now show otherwise. Ukraine is not a part of NATO but Putin decided to grab Crimea, Donbas, and keep the military activity for over 5 years in order to destabilize the country.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by abcd_f on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:14AM (#29578287)
Don’t misquote.

Current conflict is rooted exactly in Ukraine trying to aligning itself with the West. It would’ve been the EU first, Nato second for them. That would’ve created a massive headache for Russia, including the loss of its only warm port, hence the annexation and the invasion. And now Ukraine is in limbo, because the EU won’t touch it with a wooden pole while it is in an active conflict.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by drran on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:39AM (#29578545)
Current war of RF with Ukraine is about natural gas. Ukraine tried to drill natural gas near to Slovians`k by contracting Shell, to export natural gas to EU, to block RF from selling to EU. Also, Ukraine won a dispute with Romania about a natural gas field in the Black Sea. These actions threatened Gasprom plans to be $1 trillion company, so Gasprom owners started the war. Everything else is secondary.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by atlasunshrugged on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:27AM (#29578417)
Yes, even if they didn't make it into the EU, Putin's loss of political cronies at the highest level of government is dangerous for him, he has talked about the end of the Soviet Union being a tragedy so I wouldn't be so sure he doesn't want to re-unite the countries, and totally agree on the ports (plus it was insanely popular domestically, at least at first to annex Crimea)
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by adrr on Thursday December 16, 2021 @10:37AM (#29579226)
Why invade Crimea? Ukraine has two choices now, join nato or develop nukes and ICBMs.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by kevin_thibedeau on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:32AM (#29577894)
Too bad Germany blundered by making themselves dependent on Russian gas to survive.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by tpush on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:39AM (#29577944)
Germany is not dependent on Russian gas to survive, Russia's just the cheapest source of it.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by sam_lowry_ on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:30AM (#29578456)
I guess the OP referred to the exit from nuclear power.

This exit was a big mistake. Netherlands are rushing up to build new nuclear plants. Belgium seeks ways to reverse its exit plan. France has never stopped beefing up its nuclear industry.

Only Germany is behaving irrationally.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by newjersey on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:46AM (#29578012)
> The only good outcome for the whole world is Putin and allies being ousted out of power and replaced by actual non-warmonger democrats.

I don't actually know anything about Russia or Europe or politics in general first hand. However, from listening to a few episodes of the Economist podcast, my impression has been that Putin is stuck. He can't quit because even though he might be above being punished for his crimes, his cronies who have amassed billions are not. These folks will do everything in their power to keep Putin in power or find someone who is better at diverting people's attention from the problems affecting the people in their regular lives. Chechnya, Crimea, Ukraine, ... all these are (in my understanding) in service of the government's attempt at consolidating power at home.

> Nobody wants nuclear war, maybe some kind of super-sanctions would be the only recourse for the west, cut them off everything, and I mean everything.

What is a super sanction? In my (uninformed) opinion, a sanction is a complete sealing of a nation backed by political will and military might, preferably consensus from all the neighbors of the nation. No person and no goods go into or out of the country. No funds get transferred into the country or out of the country. All communications get cut off.

Correct me if I am wrong but Europe (I am speaking geographically, so including Ukraine) relies a lot on Russian petroleum and gas? And even if we weaned ourselves off of everything Russian, there is a border between Russia and China PR (mainland China under control of the CCP). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Russia_border

tl;dr a sanction not enforced by military might is not really a sanction, it is just a silly little non-binding resolution.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by elliekelly on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:06AM (#29578214)
We’ve been slowly boiling Russia with sanctions for the last decade to the point that they’ve developed & implemented plenty of work-arounds.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by atlasunshrugged on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:27AM (#29578428)
It's especially hard when the EU helps undermine them constantly because they're addicted to Russian gas
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by drran on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:40AM (#29578558)
s/EU/Germany/
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by danlugo92 on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:28AM (#29579979)
Yeah the gas thing is problematic.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by ivan_gammel on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:36AM (#29577930)
Russia in EU would mean also Russia in NATO. Russia wanted to join NATO in 1990s and the answer of the alliance was "No". IIRC, one of the reasons behind that was that this means direct border with China. China is more important and there were hopes that China will democratize as it integrates itself into global economy, so that was an unnecessary risk. The times have changed, now everyone talks about containment - having Russia as part of the biggest military and economic alliance in history would mean a lot for it. But this also means including a right wing conservative power with the economy of the similar size to Germany, twice more people, nuclear weapons and ideology similar to the one of Poland or Hungary. Making Putin leave (or waiting until he dies) will not be enough to change this.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by mytailorisrich on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:43AM (#29577982)
I think Russia in the EU would mean no more NATO.

NATO is first and foremost a tool of American power in Europe and against Russia. If the geopolitical landscape changed so much that Russia decided to join the EU and was accepted, I think it would have to mean that the EU/Europe had shifted (back) to standing up on its own.

> with the economy of the similar size to Germany

Russia's economy is not that big. Nominal GDP is between Spain and Italy.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:57AM (#29578106)
>NATO is first and foremost a tool of American power in Europe and against Russia

Sure, but that's only because Russian and US foreign policy goals are so opposed.

Other than their territorial ambitions in Europe this need not be the case.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by mytailorisrich on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:05AM (#29578204)
Not 'only'. That's key. Different countries have different interests. Powerful enough countries can remain independent and pursue them as they see fit.

The US want to keep control of Europe, that's partly what NATO is for. There's no reason for Russia to be OK with that. In fact no European country should be OK with that but for historically reasons I think they reckon that this is better than the fear of letting the "good old ways" (i.e. France or Germany trying to take over) come back, although Germany has pretty much taken over by peaceful means at this point, especially since Brexit...

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by bigbizisverywyz on Thursday December 16, 2021 @10:12AM (#29578905)
> In fact no European country should be OK with that Russia's brutal annexations in the east following WWII pretty much assured that all European countries were, in fact OK with it.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by mytailorisrich on Thursday December 16, 2021 @10:27AM (#29579104)
WWII was the result of Germany trying to take over the continent. That led to Eastern Europe being invaded/liberated by the USSR and Western Europe being invaded/liberated by the US.

It's not correct to say that all Western European countries were/are OK with US power and presence. The major powers were divided on that. Germany obviously did not really have any say, France did not want the US to stay, the UK thought that it'd help them look more important than they had become. But smaller countries may see the US as a guarantee against larger neighbours trying to invade again, as I mentioned, a bit like South Korea does.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by Viliam1234 on Thursday December 16, 2021 @07:10PM (#29585856)
> WWII was the result of Germany trying to take over the continent.

Germany, and also that other country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac...

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by bbarnett on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:20AM (#29579836)
And how do you enforce this? Another Cuba, 1960s style stand off?
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by danlugo92 on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:27AM (#29579963)
Cuba is not cut off from "everything", though their massive media campaign has made it appear so.

There's flights from the US to Cuba now.

You could say, ban any airline that flights to Russia from flying into EU/US, heck, do it on an airplane basis to avoid shell companies and such. Any airplane that touches Russian soil, banned from ever entering any US/EU airspace/soil ever again.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by bbarnett on Thursday December 16, 2021 @12:51PM (#29581280)
No, I mean the stand off, where Soviet ships in transit to Cuba, were blockaded by US warships, almost starting WWIII.

And, with China being blocked off, talk about pushing two allies even closer together. Who needs 'the west'?

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by treme on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:48AM (#29578025)
You sound pretty naïve. Putin holding on to power is likely the best outcome for the world vs unknown power vacuum & chaos that will ensue after Putin's gone.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by danlugo92 on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:30AM (#29580022)
A peaceful transition can happen, like when the USSR dissolved.

Of course I wouldn't like a power vacuum in a country with nukes.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by nzmsv on Thursday December 16, 2021 @07:16PM (#29585929)
There are a lot of Russians who don't support Putin yet will fight to make sure another one of these peaceful transitions doesn't happen in their home. Rampant crime, addictions, brain drain, internal wars - no thank you, please keep this peaceful transition.

I think Egypt was the last place that was gifted one of these. I hear it went well for them /s

[dead]
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by bovermyer on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:47AM (#29578019)
I think the implication was that the Russian people should decide to oust Putin, rather than an external sovereign power doing it.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by chalcolithic on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:45AM (#29577995)
Installing non-warmonger democrats makes sense for non-warmonger nations only.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:06AM (#29578208)
But is Russia a warmongering nation? I'd say most Russians hate war. Maybe more than anyone else because they were the nation that suffered most casualties in World War II. An emergence of a peaceful leader and friendly reactions with the West would mark the beginning of a completely new era in the history of our civilization. And would help both Russia and the West in the face of increasing Chinese power.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by atlasunshrugged on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:29AM (#29578445)
The individual people probably not, but the politicians at the top seem pretty obviously willing to engage in conflicts. Just think about Crimea for a second - when was the last time you saw a country actually annex territory? That is some old school shit (pardon my french) and a real shock to the IR community. Plus their actions in Georgia on a super flimsy pretext, troops in Moldova, etc. I'd say they're pretty warmongering...
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by nzmsv on Thursday December 16, 2021 @07:30PM (#29586055)
Annex territory? Turkey, NATO member, 1974 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus)

Your parents were alive during that time, so it's not that old school.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by chalcolithic on Thursday December 16, 2021 @11:23AM (#29579881)
We're lucky to live in time when figuring out what foreigners think is just a few clicks away, thanks to the internet and Google Translate. Please try to do it - even if you won't like what you see at first you can surely find some other sources that will confirm your view.
Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by hdjjhhvvhga on Friday December 17, 2021 @07:29AM (#29591269)
Well, that really depends on what kind of site you visit. I'm sometimes shocked seeing what comments my compatriots write under some articles. People tend to group around certain topics. So in order to understand what "Russians in general" think I'd have to survey many of them. For now, I rely on the opinion of my Russian friends.

Basically, nobody in their right minds want a war. In order to create favorable conditions for war, you need to create quite a few provocations, a lot of tensions, some murders, especially on children. At some point, people on the other side will get very emotional and demand a revenge. At that point you reached your aim: you changed the collective mind of the population and they crave for war now, they want "justice." This happened to a small degree in the USA after 9/11 - Bush did have some internal support although it was by no means unequivocal. I saw the same in the initial stages of the conflict in the former Yugoslavia: at some point people really hated each other.

But it is very, very far from it in Ukraine. There are many, many Russians in Ukraine, and many Ukrainians in Russia. In many parts of the country they speak Russians (I mean almost exclusively). Putin is trying some provocations and is also getting soldiers from distant areas of Russia so that they have less problems killing Ukrainians, but the spirit of "let's invade Ukraine" is just not there among Russians.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by javajosh on Thursday December 16, 2021 @09:35AM (#29578511)
Well now, this is the question isn't it: what's going on with Russia? They've had a (smarter, more violent) version of Trump in power for 20 years, using violence to repress dissent, using fraud to fake poll numbers, cheated so bad at the Olympics they got a forever ban, and state-run media to broadcast propoganda. For the Russians, communism failed, then capitalism failed, and the national economy is the size of Italy suffering from rampant corruption. So what is it? They are deep in the bad corner of the Nash equilibrium, bitter about losing the Cold War, and determined to achieve some vestige of glory using the two levers that remain to them: nukes and gas? (Plus a 3rd lever: world-class hackers and online propagandists.)

I find it hard to imagine that in this environment there's much of a middle-class that cares about the best 3rd wave coffee in Moscow and which is the best Montessori school (e.g. the petty problems that remain once you feel safe in your society). Those Russians left for Germany or the US long ago, is my impression.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by mytailorisrich on Thursday December 16, 2021 @08:53AM (#29578061)
Russia is not in the EU because of fundamental geopolitical differences and diverging interests. Changing the Russian government does not change these aspects.

The same goes for China, for instance. It is naive to think that a democratic government in China would fundamentally change anything to the geopolitical situation or China's international policy and goals.

The government's leanings may influence the means by which a country pursues its geopolitical interests but do not change those interests. Just observe the US.

Re:Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military pre... by VictorPath on Thursday December 16, 2021 @10:09AM (#29578878)
I mean we have an example of that, there was a radical change in the Russian government and nothing changed on either side.

Destabilizing Russia or China means the West can grab more from the Russian or Chinese people. Look what the West did in China in the 19th century.