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Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by radicaldreamer on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:23PM (#29556135)
People have been saying this for the last 20 years and I've yet to build a linux workstation that isn't at least 20-30% more time consuming to configure, maintain and tweak than a Mac and sometimes a lot more time than that.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by pkulak on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:09PM (#29556816)
This seems off to me. I remember when I was using Mac, if I got a new machine, I had at least a day of downtime. Everything is minor, but it totally adds up. You've got to run around to dozens of websites, download, and click through menus to install Docker/Homebrew/IntelliJ/etc. Then there are all the nanny systems you have to turn off every time you hit them the first time. Oh, gotta give the console access to the filesystem. Half the binaries you download aren't signed to Apple's liking, so you gotta work around each one of those, and how you work around it changes with every major version of MacOS. Hell, just dragging, holding and releasing the 2-dozen useless default apps the hell out of the Dock takes a solid minute. Did you sign in to iCloud yet, btw? Siri would love to be enabled to, if you have a moment. Your home folder isn't in the finder, just a bunch of iCloud stuff and the Desktop. Do you remember how to option-click in the magic spot to find it and make a shortcut? It's death by a million cuts.

That said, I'm not gonna pretend that Linux is some utopia and everything works immediately. But there's no way it's worse. I have a script that takes any machine from a formatted drive to a working OS exactly how I need it, unattended, in about 20 minutes. That's extreme, but everyone at least has a list of the packages they need that they can copy paste install into the terminal as soon as the installer is done.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by kayodelycaon on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @04:11PM (#29557822)
MacOS is a lot easier if you restore from a Time Machine backup. In four hours I can buy a new machine and be logged in and working like nothing happened. Done that plenty of times.

I think the biggest thing I can point to is how well Apple products work for the average person. I buy new ones every 2~3 years and keep N-1 as a spare. N-2 goes to someone who has asked me too many PC support questions.

Everyone I've given an apple laptop has eventually bought a new one. They bitched about the price, but they were ultimately willing to pay for it. My dad worked for IBM for many years and was not happy I "wasted money" on my first mac in college. Ten years later after him still saying that, I gave him a laptop. That was a few years ago and last month he bought a new M1 Air. Meanwhile, a number of the people he works with have converted to Apple laptops because they've seen how well his works.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by stnikolauswagne on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:25PM (#29557077)
I am on my 4th macbook in 7 years, I have not had to install any program twice and all my settings so far have carried over between devices, with the sole exception of security settings. Maybe I got absurdly lucky but I have never had this little issues with switching devices thanks to migration assistant.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by pkulak on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:32PM (#29557188)
Ah yeah, I guess I've never done the migration assistant thing. Seems dirty not to start with a clean slate, but maybe that's just my hangup.

But, you can also just copy your home directory on Linux for the same kinda process.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by zippergz on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:52PM (#29557511)
I do think that's where you're hurting yourself. I've been using Macs since before OS X came out, and in the OS X era I have never had long downtime when switching to a new machine. In the old days before Migration Assistant, you'd just clone the drive. These days you use Migration Assistant. I do understand the "dirty" sentiment, but in reality I've been upgrading via cloning or Migration Assistant for close to 20 years now with never a clean install, and it's worked well.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by pkulak on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @04:29PM (#29558102)
Absolutely not hurting myself. I love Linux. :D I don't think I'll ever switch back. I actually understand how every aspect of my machine works, and this feeling of control is absolutely addictive.

I kinda lost the thread at this point, but I was just trying to make the point the Macs aren't magically usable out of the box, at least for power users.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GekkePrutser on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @12:22AM (#29562407)
> Absolutely not hurting myself. I love Linux. :D I don't think I'll ever switch back. I actually understand how every aspect of my machine works, and this feeling of control is absolutely addictive.

This is exactly the reason for the feeling of empowerment I got when I moved to FreeBSD/KDE after Mac. I didn't realise just how closed down macOS had gotten over time. This was the number one reason for my move but the extent of it still surprised me. Everything I want differently now is just easy, documented and usually even has a GUI button ready for the clicking. Whereas in macOS it's just "this is how it works, get used to it" now.

Apple is working so hard to lock the underpinnings of the OS down now and even if you can still change things to work your way you have to jump through so many hoops it becomes really annoying. And as well as that whatever option you used to get there is bound to get changed or removed without notice.

I just realized I'm not happy just going along with other people's choices. I hate 'going with the flow'. I recognise any the specific annoyances you mentioned in your post higher up in the thread.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by prewett on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @09:21PM (#29561272)
You can copy your home directory on macOS, too, I do it every time I get a new machine and it works fine. I just `cp -a` my home directory onto the external drive and do the same back off. I do have to chown -R the directory sometimes, if the UID is different for some reason. Obviously you need to reinstall the applications, but that is mostly just dragging them into /Applications. Not too much different from `apt-get install`ing them, really.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by handrous on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @04:02PM (#29557679)
I have dozens of GUI programs—commercial and open-source—and even more command line programs and I'm like 99% sure the only one I installed in any way other than `brew install [name]` was homebrew itself. Oh, wait, not quite true: Apple's software (Numbers, Pages, Keynote, et c.) I manage through the App Store. That's it.

The fact that Brew's package selection is one of the most complete that exists (I think Arch's and Gentoo's get fairly close, maybe with a few not-enabled-by-default ones added in?), is one of the main reasons I like it so much.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by kitsunesoba on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:55PM (#29557557)
Depends on what you’re used to and what your needs are. I can have a Mac in reasonably usable shape in 30-45m, whereas getting Linux configured to my liking (especially under KDE) quickly turns into a multi-hour affair and ends in an unsatisfying state because of all the little things that can’t be the way I like unless I start digging into source code or writing my own desktop bits.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GekkePrutser on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @12:56AM (#29562598)
> Depends on what you’re used to and what your needs are. I can have a Mac in reasonably usable shape in 30-45m, whereas getting Linux configured to my liking (especially under KDE) quickly turns into a multi-hour affair and ends in an unsatisfying state because of all the little things that can’t be the way I like unless I start digging into source code or writing my own desktop bits.

That only works well if macOS is in fact exactly how you like things. Because it's a lot less configurable than KDE and the whole source code thing is not an option at all :)

I agree, if you want a Mac then don't try to make Linux like one because you'll never get close enough.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by brarsanmol on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @08:11PM (#29560667)
I mean I've had 2 mac's so far and I've reset the first one a handful of times it never took me more than about 1 - 2 hours to get up and running with Homebrew (a package manager for Mac). Although I will agree the Mac installer is highly unintuitive.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @08:22PM (#29560776)
I never felt that way, its pretty easy, early version installs breaks stuff, and I have to deal with any UI and features they added in.

You partition your computer to just try the new version as well? Pretty handy.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by outworlder on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:47PM (#29556507)
> People have been saying this for the last 20 years and I've yet to build a linux workstation that isn't at least 20-30% more time consuming to configure, maintain and tweak than a Mac and sometimes a lot more time than that.

That's a high bar to clear. One thing that Apple does that makes a lot of sense is that they own the hardware and the software. Hackintoshes are a good indication of how things would look like if they had to support more hardware than they do.

This is one of the reasons why I have recommended Macs for the less tech savvy members of my family. Just works, great manufacturer support (noone really comes close), has things like Time Machine to keep backups running. My "support calls" dropped drastically.

My mother had a Linux netbook(remember those?) for banking purposes but a Mac for general usage. She would be able to browse on Linux, but things would get messy the moment she would want to, say, use her cricut machine.

Let's compare with Windows? That truly takes a whole lot of time, specially because the OS seems to "rot" over time. It's become less of an issue (possibly also because our hardware is so powerful). My Windows desktop has taken way more work to maintain than my Linux machines(plural) + Macs. I have to keep that for VR, Fusion360 (going to ditch that as soon as I can) and the odd game that doesn't work properly (Sea of Thieves in-game chat?). Can't wait to get rid of it and use only Linux - which takes hardly any "maintenance" at all (other than installing updates and even that is just a click).

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by 2muchcoffeeman on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:46PM (#29557413)
>That's a high bar to clear. One thing that Apple does that makes a lot of sense is that they own the hardware and the software.

It’s an ideological bar though. Pick a line or models of laptops and officially support that specific line. Keep the list smallish and from popular manufacturers. Everything else deals with it they way we do now.

Linux on supported hardware is pretty low maintenance. But it’s still not quite as nice as MacOS. And god forbid you get the latest hardware.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:24PM (#29556146)
You can’t really configure a Mac at all.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by matthewfcarlson on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:27PM (#29556177)
For some that’s a feature, not a bug. I really wish there was at least a CLI you could use to tweak certain behaviors instead of a mix on nvram and system preference
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:43PM (#29556445)
Agree but they’re complaining like I bought food at a restaurant and I can’t cook it. Seems like an invalid complaint.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by irae on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:44PM (#29556450)
You can't really configure your car after you bought it either. Or your blender or your hair dryer.

Not everything in the world needs to be configurable to be good. Yes, when moving from Windows to Mac, people miss stuff that could be configured. When moving from Mac to Windows, from Mac to Linux etc, it is always the same story.

But people often miss the point that being configurable does not always means making it better necessarily. Part of configuration is to allow people to work differently, and that is good. But configuration to make it work like the competition (make Mac work like windows, or Mac work like linux) is beyond what configuration should be able to do anyway. Otherwise you end up with no consistency and a bad compromise.

Even with Macs trying to offer a consistent experience, Mac apps can often behave differently. Back in the day when I used Linux I felt like many apps I needed to learn how they dealt with the most basic things like the menu locations, like window management, preferences/settings/configuration etc. Too much configuration is not healthy all the time. And Linux culture of "configure all the things" might be hurting Linux adoption itself.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:22PM (#29557017)
I agree, configuration is evil. I love my zero config fish shell.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GekkePrutser on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @01:26AM (#29562755)
The problem with no configuration is that someone else (the vendor) configures it for you. Who doesn't necessarily have the same interests.

Consider Microsoft complement destroying usability in Windows 8 just because they wanted to sell more tablets. Apple trying to lock you in ever deeper into their walled garden.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by duped on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:32PM (#29556262)
You don't need to nearly as much, by comparison.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by howinteresting on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:46PM (#29557408)
How do you turn off workspace switching animations on Macs?

Note, I said "turn off", which the "Reduce Motion" setting does not do.

Also, how do you get a 4k monitor to run at 144Hz on an Intel Mac?

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @04:18PM (#29557928)
Depends which OSX version you have for both, I don't know if your hardware supports the last one, but you might need the correct cable, HDMI doesn't do it for me, and if your intel GPU can't, it won't, not an OSX issue.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by howinteresting on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @04:50PM (#29558414)
They are both MacOS issues.

The first one is simply impossible to do on Monterey.

The 4k 144 thing is a software regression (so not a hardware limitation) that still hasn't been fixed: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253168625

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @05:27PM (#29558973)
I hate the every year we update model. I never do it for iOS or OSX. Miss snow leopard: selling point: 0 new features.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by cassianoleal on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @04:54PM (#29558491)
I don't have a 4k monitor but I have an ultrawide that does 144Hz. The only way I found to use it that way was via SwitchResX.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @05:34PM (#29559057)
Does it make a big difference? I heard 60hz freesync would make a bigger difference than high refresh, it looked nice when I had 144hz but aside from me sliding my mouse it didn’t really change anything.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by cassianoleal on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @09:28PM (#29574118)
60Hz is absolute minimum, but it's also mostly sufficient.

120-144Hz is a lot nicer though. All animations, scrolling, even just moving the pointer, look and feel smoother and snappier.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by howinteresting on Wednesday December 15, 2021 @11:33AM (#29568179)
Depends on the person, but for me it makes a big difference.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:44PM (#29556460)
If you can’t, you can’t call it need to. I’d compare it to GNOME.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by kitsunesoba on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:59PM (#29557617)
From someone who’s used both macOS and GNOME a good deal, GNOME to me feels a lot more like iPadOS if it had been mildly adjusted to run on desktops than it does macOS. There’s several aspects of GNOME and its app suite that are more inflexible than macOS and its apps.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by GhettoComputers on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @04:15PM (#29557889)
I completely agree. If someone uses GNOME and says OSX isn't configuration friendly, the critique is very hypocritical, enough to be dismissed. If you say that and use almost any other DE (I love KDE) sure. Someone saying the overcooked steak is disgusting while eating a burnt piece of toast is hard to take serious, they are constantly breaking addons and plugins, its like they don't want any 3rd party support, not unlike the often critiqued apple desktop.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by hanklazard on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:28PM (#29556197)
Try pop!_os. Really easy to install and use. It’s my daily driver on a carbon X1 and I’m not a developer or anything.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by leetrout on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:37PM (#29556342)
Tossing out a second +1 for pop!

I've not used it in about a year now and I do miss it. They were adding support for a tiling WM mode and it wasn't bad (needed some work).

I was using it on System76 hardware and had zero issues with the OS and S76 replaced my keyboard when it went bad.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by WJW on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:07PM (#29556795)
pop! is indeed really nice, with the possible exception that for some reasons I have to manually recompile the nvidia drivers (and sometimes wifi drivers) with some arcane `dkms` commands every time the OS updates include a kernel update. After the second time this happened I just pasted all the commands in a text file for later reference but it sure is annoying. Apparently not everyone has this problem though, so maybe my computer is just weird.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by __MatrixMan__ on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @05:51PM (#29559233)
I guess it depends on what you're configuring. I'm using microk8s at work and the part of my team that has to deal with the VM-encapsulated version that runs on Mac or Windows is always mired in configuration woes. Same goes for docker.

Granted, that's a far cry from touchpad configs--but if you keep your dotfiles in git then touchpad config is something you only have to once (per touchpad that you own).

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by 2-718-281-828 on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:02PM (#29556730)
maybe you're just a passionate tweaker. the basic stuff I need for my workstation has to be configured on any OS - be it Windows, Linux or Mac. the more advanced stuff is mostly optional and I usually do it additionally on linux just because I can. so, I'd say this is a bit of an apple-pear-comparison.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by hasel on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @02:30PM (#29556227)
Bootup archlinux image, type in archinstall, make sure to select gnome... It's that easy.
Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by edgyquant on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:42PM (#29557337)
To get an OS? Sure. To get one setup to run my dev environment, games and media? I have to pull in a GitHub repo and run a script that installs and configures everything for me (before the usual tasks of logging in to a hundred websites.) I swore Linux was super easy to setup for years, and as someone whose daily driver is MacOS now I still agree it’s the easiest to setup to my needs, but all 3 main OSs can get you a system in a couple clicks/keystrokes. Windows is probably the most difficult to setup for me (MacOS is at least unix so my scripts for Linux mostly work on the Mac as well) and I only use it for my gaming pc (which was for years Ubuntu, I just decided to install windows on it since I only use it to game anymore.)

I love Linux, it’s been my OS since Vista came out and I switched to SUSE Community Edition, but we get so used to our OSs we forget part of the ease of use is being familiar. When I problem pops up on Ubuntu I can solve it within a minute. When one pops up on Mac it takes me some googling (and I give up on windows.) None if these systems are all the easy (or difficult) to use, it’s just a few basic concepts and then a ton of time figuring stuff out.

Re:Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: Touchpad Gestures Now... by thatguy0900 on Tuesday December 14, 2021 @03:40PM (#29557304)
Arch is not a good goto if you don't want to spend a lot of configuration time