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Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by cardosof on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:04PM (#29487284)
Are there NFT plans that make sense? I'm sorry if I'm being too cynical for the general quality of this forum, but all I see regarding NFTs look like get rich quick schemes, so I'm not putting a cent in that. Am I losing the opportunity of a lifetime?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by speedgoose on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:17PM (#29487481)
> Am I losing the opportunity of a lifetime?

If you feel like participating in a large scam, perhaps. Personally I would feel bad and I rather not touch this.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by throw_nbvc1234 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:57PM (#29489627)
If you don't want to participate in the scam aspect, just don't resell. Or make sure someone you're selling to is comfortable with the value going to 0 (and wants artist to make any smart contract royalties).

You can still use it as a way to invest in artists.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by speedgoose on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:13PM (#29489836)
When you say "invest in artists", do you mean you want to support artists or you want to exploit artists in the hope of making profits ?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by kobasa on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:42AM (#29494543)
Why is absolute braindead comments like this still tolerated on here. I mean you'd hope that at some point the people who missed out on one of the biggest investment and technological opportunities of our time would just suck it up and either admit they were wrong or quietly move on with their lives but this place is just filled with angry cope comments like this that seek to vilify participants in a new space without even having a moderate understanding of what they're talking about. Maybe just maybe past all the evil scams and get rich quick schemes out there (which is present in any nascent industry), there are some things and people who are interested in this space and aspects of it that don't amount to eXpLoItaTioN.

And just to actually touch on this specific aspect of artists and being exploited, it's a laughable suggestion to mention this in this context when NFTs are one of the first times in recent history when artists can actually take back control from being exploited and unable to provide for themselves without succumbing to essentially giving up their soul - to unlocking their creative freedom and earning potential like we've never seen before.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by speedgoose on Thursday December 09, 2021 @04:36AM (#29495461)
I don't know, insulting others with rhetorical questions shouldn't be tolerated. I didn't read the rest of your comment.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by cwkoss on Thursday December 09, 2021 @12:35PM (#29500365)
You seem proud of not reading it... That's the attitude I don't like seeing on HN.

Smug and lacking intellectual curiosity

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by speedgoose on Thursday December 09, 2021 @01:06PM (#29500789)
Not listening to insulting people is not lack of intellectual curiosity.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by ineptech on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:28PM (#29487669)
The only non-speculation and non-dumb use case for NFTs I know of is identities for distributed or federated apps.

An NFT registry is just a list of people who own numbers, and they get made fun of because a) owning a number isn't very useful, and b) anyone who wants to own the same number can just make a new list. But identities are exceptions: a) a username for a specific app is one of the few cases where it is useful to own a number, and b) because a specific app will only look at a specific list, i.e. it's reasonable and expected that I might own the 'ineptech' username on HN and someone else might own it on some other platform.

So, if you were going to make some sort of distributed social app, e.g. a twitter clone, it would make sense to use an NFT-like registry to track ownership of the handles. I believe this is basically how urbit identity ownership works, although it was implemented before the NFT craze.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by pornel on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:30PM (#29488478)
I guess that is close to making sense, but as usual there are simpler alternatives. For example, the DNS. It already is a distributed global registry of reserved names that can be traded. The difference is more in political outlook than technical capability.

There could be simpler solutions even without a big bad central authority. Nodes participating in the federated network could build consensus among themselves (after all, each node has to voluntarily honor the database, whether that database is on the blockchain or not). The identity ownership can be controlled via knowledge of the private key. Just like you can currently sell your Twitter or Insta username by selling the password.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by floatboth on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:51PM (#29487983)
Namecoin was released in 2011 — way before the NFT craze.

This is indeed the most attractive reason for a globally distributed database of "valuable things", but proof-of-whatever powered "trustless" systems (cryptocurrencies) are still terrible. There was a really good experimental system with articulated trust: https://github.com/andres-erbsen/dename

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by gpm on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:25PM (#29487622)
> Are there NFT plans that make sense?

I mean, it seems like an way for artists to collect donations, and to distribute the donations so that less popular artists get a larger share, because even the most popular artists only have 1 "you own the NFT representing the 'original' version of this piece" to sell per piece of artwork.

Unsurprisingly, all the scammers and get-rich-quick people are making a lot more noise.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by 300bps on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:07PM (#29487330)
Are there NFT plans that make sense?

The tax fraud schemes make sense for now. Party A makes 10 NFTs and sells 1 to Party B for $10,000. Party B makes 10 NFTs and sells 1 to Party A for $10,000.

They both then donate their remaining NFTs to a charity and take a $90,000 tax write-off each.

Will work until the IRS is able to hire the additional 80,000 enforcement agents they’ve asked for.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by cardosof on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:37PM (#29487774)
If NFT is the 21st century equivalent for the money laundering and tax evasion schemes with art pieces in the past centuries, then, being long ETH seems like a good strategy, disregarding the morality of it.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by lmkg on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:10PM (#29487365)
It has been pointed out that NFTs have actually been around for a few years, but their rise in popularity coincides with the IRS tightening some rules about using artwork for tax write-offs.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by 300bps on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:13PM (#29487420)
Tightening rules does nothing if they aren’t enforced.

Otherwise why did the IRS pay out $30MM in refunds for “Slavery Credits” that had no basis in law?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/irs-pays-30m-in-slavery-credits...

There are literally thousands of examples of things like this.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by mminer237 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:25PM (#29487628)
Are charities really going to provide receipts that their donated NF-what?s are worth $180,000? Is the market liquid enough for them to resell them? If it is, then it's no different than if A & B resold them and donated the money. If not, why would charities go along with it?

It's easy to find a small museum to donate small amounts of artwork to at an inflated value. But what charity wants NFTs?

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by turkishmonky on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:30PM (#29487693)
With the money at stake, it would be pretty easy for both parties to tangentially set up a 501c3 whose purpose is to display gifted NFTs to the public
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by mminer237 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:49PM (#29487954)
I think that would be hard to get IRS approval for. Regardless, the right to display a work is its copyright, which is unrelated to NFTs anyway.

And donating intellectual property to charities with high claimed values isn't anything new. That's why in 2004 the American Jobs Creation Act required that any donated intellectual property be valued at the lesser of its cost basis and its fair market value. (See: 26 USC § 170(e))

So in your example, each would accrue a $10,000 income tax liability by their sale and be able to write off a $10,000 gain by their donation's basis, accomplishing nothing.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by negroni on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:36PM (#29490150)
> But what charity wants NFTs?

I attended an event last night in a museum where over $150k was raised for local Charities by auctioning off NFT Art. It will probably become more common than one might imagine.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by neom on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:27PM (#29487647)
This is the closest I've seen to a product that is intellectually honest in the space:

https://islands.xyz/ & https://blockblock.io/

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by jedberg on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:39PM (#29487810)
I own some NFTs. They represent a partial interest in an LLC that owns real property (single family homes) in the United States. The properties earn rental income, which flows to a management company, which takes their cut and sends the rest to the LLC, which then puts the rent into crypto which flows to me via smart contract daily. I can take my rent money out any time I want or I can sell my NFT any time I want based on the current value of the house (which I think is just pulled from Zillow or Redfin?).

It's an experiment for sure, but the nice thing is that the tokens are only $50 each initially (they base the total number of tokens on the purchase price of the house so that they come out to $50 each) so it's low risk.

You can get the tokens too at https://lofty.ai (I have no relation to them other than being a customer, but they are a YC company).

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by progfix on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:16PM (#29488287)
Sounds like a convoluted way of gambling on property values? I don't know why you would need NFT or crypto currency for that (other than making the whole scheme sound more complex and important to investors).
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by jedberg on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:18PM (#29488314)
It's the easiest way for 3,000 people to own a single building. Managing an LLC with that many owners is an accounting nightmare. It wouldn't make sense to only charge $50 to invest and to pay rent each day if you had to manage it "the old way". The old way being REITs, which I used to invest in, but you lose a lot of money on management fees that way.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by scotu on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:00PM (#29489686)
can't the justification for the management fee (employee doing the accounting etc) be just replaced by centralized software though? What does a blockchain bring?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by cardosof on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @09:47PM (#29493210)
> What does a blockchain bring? Investors.

Jokes aside, it could be that for some people the public and decentralized history of token ownership is more robust and transparent.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by benhurmarcel on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:30PM (#29489268)
What happens if an owner loses his private key, or it gets stolen? Does he legally lose his property?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by jedberg on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @03:16PM (#29489874)
Presumably. But since it's ownership in an LLC, in theory the manager of the LLC could rectify it by issuing a new replacement token or something similar.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by TomSwirly on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @05:22PM (#29491327)
So what's the point of the blockchain here, if you have a single trusted source?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by marban on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:13PM (#29488262)
Any Gas fees whatsoever that would eat up profits?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by jedberg on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:16PM (#29488296)
The company that manages the NFTs reimburses them for right now.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by shock-value on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:27PM (#29488453)
Thus negating

> but you lose a lot of money on management fees that way.

(It's just not you paying the fees at this point in time.)

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by jedberg on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:35PM (#29488534)
I'm not sure how that follows? Lofty.ai is using their investor money to pay the fees. I think they are counting on the fees being negligible at scale.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by shock-value on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @02:23PM (#29489146)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding but don't the fees scale (basically linearly) with the number of transactions? It seems like you are suggesting that this NFT based approach is superior at least in part because money can be invested/withdrawn more frequently/flexibly.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by SpaceManNabs on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:18PM (#29487493)
The axie infinity model looks alright. There is verifiable work in breeding the axies.

Too bad the game is boring; the future roadmap is stale compared to upcoming competitors; and the dev team has become deluded from their success derived from first to market.

I can see the next Pokemon-like NFT game do well.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by smt88 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:23PM (#29487591)
> The axie infinity model looks alright. There is verifiable work in breeding the axies.

Still doesn't seem to require a blockchain. Axie Infinity decides whether assets (on-chain or not) are compatible with their game. That means the control over (and value of) the assets are centralized with the game devs anyway.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by lghh on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:42PM (#29487837)
Why does it need to be an NFT thought rather than some centralized ledger. It's the distributed, no trust nature of this that I don't get in video games. Games have a developer and publisher and (sadly) generally centralized servers. Why add in distributed cosmetics?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by larsiusprime on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:11PM (#29488239)
> The axie infinity model looks alright

The Axie Infinity model is verifiably unsustainable and doesn't even generate income unless the game is actively growing. Demand for SLP depends on demand for breeding which in turn is dependent on demand for new users, it's not a pretty picture.

https://twitter.com/larsiusprime/status/1459191090100244483

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by SpaceManNabs on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:37PM (#29488572)
i am not referring the game's tokenomics. Just saying why NFTs would be useful here. Proof of breeding and lineage is important for Pokemon-lite games.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:28PM (#29487671)
Does it really make any sense though? Why is a decentralized ledger of any value to them?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by archi42 on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:39PM (#29487808)
The value to Ubisoft? It is to extract more money from the customer. From the technical perspective I suppose they know pretty well that they could have done the whole "unique" items including a marketplace using "traditional" tech instead of... this.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by meheleventyone on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:36PM (#29487767)
The secondary market and they don’t have to touch any of the regulations around handling real money if they were to run this themselves. F2P games with their own virtual currencies don’t usually let players cash out for the latter reason.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:53PM (#29488005)
What value is the secondary market to them? Or allowing their players to "cash out"?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by meheleventyone on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:04PM (#29488143)
They can take a cut of every secondary market transaction and players need to be able to cash out for a secondary market to make sense. The main reason for not doing that centrally is it becomes an attractive means of money laundering which Valve found out with their skins. Second Life also had this problem and IIRC a third party company handles all their game related banking business as a result.

Note I’m not saying this is a good thing and I think all the entities involved should have the same regulatory responsibility but you can see the greasy cogs whirring in some executives brain.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:18PM (#29488315)
How does it being decentralized make it unattractive for money laundering?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by meheleventyone on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:27PM (#29488440)
It doesn’t. Crypto is famously massively popular for money laundering. It just makes it not Ubisoft’s problem in the same way Valve farmed out the risk and responsibility to third party skin sites. Similarly Second Life dealt with this more ethically by engaging a partner to deal with the regulatory side of things

It’s also not a claim I made so I’m not sure why you addressed that question to me.

Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:41PM (#29488614)
I addressed the question to you because I thought that was what you were saying: that somehow the involvement of a decentralized ledger made money laundering less attractive. Your description of the actual reasoning, that it shifts the burden of responsibility, makes a lot more sense.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by meheleventyone on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @01:57PM (#29488804)
In which case I apologise for not being clearer the first time.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by SpaceManNabs on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:33PM (#29487732)
They want the game to be governed, patched, etc. by the community eventually via a DAO. I think you needed a decentralized ledger for that, but as of right now, I think you are correct in that a decentralized ledger is not so useful.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by serverholic on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @12:47PM (#29487915)
I just bought an ENS domain name. As a result I got an NFT sent to my account that represents the ownership of my domain. I can now keep it, trade it, exchange it, give it away, etc. That's what NFTs are for.
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by rideontime on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:01PM (#29490446)
How does ENS plan on getting anybody but crypto enthusiasts to install the browser plugins that legitimize their alternative DNS?
Re:Ubisoft’s first NFT plans make no sense by serverholic on Wednesday December 08, 2021 @04:49PM (#29490978)
Well Cloudflare has a proxy service called eth.link.

Basically take any ens domain and add ".link" to the end of it and it'll proxy to the ens domain.

But other than that, you don't have to use it if you don't want to.