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Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by Swizec on Sunday December 05, 2021 @09:39AM (#29449549)
The part that blows my mind is that according to this article, the idea that we evolved in a straight line was an attempt at fighting nazi propaganda about inferior races. Before ww2, the scientific consensus was that we evolved in a branching species rich manner, same as any other animal.

By 1963 it was again okay to talk about multiple hominid species, so the scientific consensus started moving back in that direction.

I find this fascinating because I never realized science could be so political.

More interestingly still, when the author talks about species being mis-identified as homo sapiens despite stark morphological differences and that they probably represent an extinct close relative, that gave me a funny gut feeling. Felt like dangerous territory to talk about …

Fascinating

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by tomrod on Sunday December 05, 2021 @10:02AM (#29449769)
The history of taboo thought in science is indeed fascinating.

What seems sort of funny is that now that the existence for potential taboo censoring has been recognized, in recent decades there are several charlatans, conspiracy-mongers, or other ideologues who paint themselves as subject to scientific taboo despite "being accurate" in their own minds. The pendulum has swung towards over-acceptance of claims.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by pessimizer on Sunday December 05, 2021 @01:54PM (#29451799)
> Before ww2, the scientific consensus was that we evolved in a branching species rich manner, same as any other animal.

This was a time referred to as the "nadir of race relations" in the US, and if you read the output about humans as a species from that period, you'd be a lot less impressed. It's all out of copyright and a lot is available online. It's not what most of us would look at as science, now. It's more like mythmaking.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by geofft on Sunday December 05, 2021 @02:41PM (#29452323)
Also, take a look at the history of eugenics, which was seen in the years before World War II as a legitimate and noble scientific goal - to improve the human species by the application of science and engineering, no more immoral than breeding hardy tomatoes or fast horses. Many countries that joined the war on the side of the Allies had significant scientific, governmental, and public support for eugenics (the US and the UK had a Eugenics Society, Canada had provincial Eugenics Boards in Alberta and British Columbia, etc.). Neutral Sweden had an active eugenic sterilization program.

So, the "scientific consensus" of that era involved a number of scientists from many countries who agreed with policies and goals that, in retrospect, we now see as not only politically partisan but also specifically aligned with Nazi political ends.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by cedilla on Sunday December 05, 2021 @07:46PM (#29454917)
Yes, a lot of scientists believed in hateful pseudoscience like scientific racism, eugenics and phrenology.

Your argument is a very common one but very flawed. Antisemitism, ultranationalism and eugenics aren't bad because the Nazis did it. It's exactly the other way round!

Eugenics are just as flawed and criminal when a Swedish doctor or a British politician advocate for it.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by geofft on Sunday December 05, 2021 @09:06PM (#29455402)
I think you're misunderstanding my point - I'm saying that eugenics was bad at the time, even before the Nazis implemented it at horrifying scale, but the scientific consensus of the time was that eugenics was a perfectly reasonable thing to work on, and therefore we should not trust the scientific consensus of the time.

If the scientists of that era said that certain humans were an inferior species to Homo sapiens, and the scientists after World War II said that's not true, we shouldn't assume that the pre-war view was pure untainted science and the post-war one was the result of overcorrecting for political/moral reasons - we should consider the possibility that the pre-war scientific consensus was tainted by political/moral views that we now rightly reject.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by BoiledCabbage on Sunday December 05, 2021 @04:15PM (#29453342)
> This was a time referred to as the "nadir of race relations" in the US,

Its incredible how little people know about the period in American history between the end of Reconstruction and the start of WWII beyond just: "WWI", "Market Crash", "Great Depression".

Following one theme: Nadir of race relations, Red Summer of 1919, and Great Migration (one of the largest movements of people in history).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir_of_American_race_relatio...

It makes it so much more difficult to have an objective discussion about the past simply because people are unaware of it, or simply understand it at a very high / hand-wavy level. "Some bad stuff happened then eventually it stopped."

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by rosmax_1337 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @09:55AM (#29449695)
This is very dangerous territory indeed. Arguably the most taboo field in science right now. Sadly.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by Causality1 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @10:24AM (#29449923)
Frankly I think we're quite lucky we're not a more diverse species. There's no biological reason a human subspecies couldn't have gotten isolated in a valley somewhere and ended up being fifty IQ points smarter or dumber than the rest of humanity. Same goes for our sexes being identically intellectually capable. Would the principle of egalitarianism have ever emerged in such a world?
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by AnthonyMouse on Sunday December 05, 2021 @02:11PM (#29451999)
> There's no biological reason a human subspecies couldn't have gotten isolated in a valley somewhere and ended up being fifty IQ points smarter or dumber than the rest of humanity. Same goes for our sexes being identically intellectually capable. Would the principle of egalitarianism have ever emerged in such a world?

I want to say yes, because how are you even distinguishing that world from this one? There exist humans who are fifty IQ points smarter or dumber than other humans who also exist.

The batshit crazy idea is that these differences are caused by or intrinsically bound with skin color.

As for sex differences, here's the money quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligenc...

> All or most of the major tests commonly used to measure intelligence have been constructed so that there are no overall score differences between males and females.

We believe in egalitarianism, therefore IQ tests that show a sex difference are wrong, therefore we use IQ tests that show no sex difference.

Now, if there are biological differences between the sexes, they could not only go either way, they could go both ways. It's possible that on average women are better at X and men are better at Y, so you could really design a test to show whatever result you want.

It's also obviously the case that no matter what the averages are, the world's highest-scoring male will almost certainly have a better score than the world's lowest-scoring female and vice versa. So arguments of the form "women can't do X" are stupid even if you can find a statistically significant difference in the averages using some metric. Because most people are not exactly average.

Discrimination is the assumption that all members of a group are the same.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by Causality1 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @02:48PM (#29452403)
There exist humans who are fifty IQ points smarter or dumber than other humans who also exist.

Sure but they're not all in the same ethnic group. What if a populous group had the peak of their intellectual curve far down the range? If, say, Gauls/French people were almost entirely simpletons equivalent to someone with Down Syndrome? Would they be enslaved and turned into a worldwide servant class? Every other group that were thought of as being inferior can be demonstrably equal to their oppressors but I think a world in which they weren't could be very different.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by mr_toad on Sunday December 05, 2021 @08:34PM (#29455208)
> What if a populous group had the peak of their intellectual curve far down the range?

It takes a long time, an evolutionary timescale for that sort of difference to emerge. There’s an argument that the reason that modern humans are so homogeneous is because we wiped out all competition long before we had recorded history or civilisation.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by haihaibye on Monday December 06, 2021 @10:05PM (#29468707)
That's not a hypothetical, many Pygmies are currently enslaved

https://mankindquarterly.org/archive/issue/51-4/2

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by rebuilder on Sunday December 05, 2021 @03:09PM (#29452634)
The thing is, when humans conquer a rival group, we tend to rape the survivors. That kind of ensures genetic mixing, so this kind large discrepancy in innate ability couldn't really appear.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by avgcorrection on Sunday December 05, 2021 @11:17AM (#29450339)
We wouldn’t want a world where IQ fetishists were to be even more discriminatory against people with lower IQs. (Or supposedly lower IQs.) It’s bad enough as things currently stand.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by foobiekr on Sunday December 05, 2021 @04:08PM (#29453275)
What if it cured cancer and HIV?
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by avgcorrection on Sunday December 05, 2021 @04:31PM (#29453510)
No.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by technobabbler on Sunday December 05, 2021 @02:16PM (#29452065)
There's also no biological reason 8 billion individual hominids evolved under different conditions and upbringing and nutrition should share the same intellectual capacity, any more than all 8 billion would be equally good sprinters or have the same skin tone or oxygen capacity.

The brain is just another blob of flesh, and what we understand of its capacities suggest it's at least partially inheritable. You'd have to ignore a lot of evidence to believe that all humans are intellectually equal. If there is variation and there is mutation and there are different pockets of populations, there are going to be evolutionary differences between them. Then in terms of sexual selection, we'd have to believe that intelligence as a criterion for mate selection is equally important across cultures, and also impacts offspring fitness the same across all cultures and environments -- vs, say, disease or sun resistance in the tropics. Otherwise, differences would naturally arise over time.

The tricky part is coming up a way to define, much less measure, "intellectual capacity" across different cultures and ways of knowing. IQ tests are pretty biased and arguably a useless measure of evolutionary fitness in many human cultures. Even if you could create the perfect cross-cultural IQ definition and test, administering and collecting such a thing would be nearly impossible in a world where many countries don't even have proper birth records or thorough population censuses (even a basic count, without in-depth testing).

We already know that, within the upper and lower bounds, there can be great variations of "intelligence" WITHIN populations group, as well as smaller differences between them. But we lack the methodology and cultural transparency to be able to accurately measure whether the cross-cultural error bars fall within the intracultural ones. That's not for lack of trying, mind you... many careers have either risen to infamy or else have been destroyed for daring to suggest such things.

In other words, it's not that all humans are equal, it's that we're SO diverse it's hard to group us into neat little groups, whether by race, ancestry, skin color, intelligence, or any other genetic factor. Because the underlying genes themselves don't work that way. They're always changing and competing.

The principles of egalitarianism are a cultural ideal (not shared by much of the world, mind you), not necessarily scientific observations. The scientific input to the ideal, if anything, is not that "the are no differences between groups" but "there are so many differences that these groupings don't really make sense; there are a million other equally valid groupings".

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by zqna on Sunday December 05, 2021 @12:58PM (#29451177)
The only reason why there are no other hominids on this planet is because homo sapiens were the most violent of the subspecies. It's in our blood to enslave any opposition or rivals if possibel. When not, we exterminate them. We do the same within our own species too.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by avgcorrection on Sunday December 05, 2021 @11:19AM (#29450362)
> I find this fascinating because I never realized science could be so political.

Surely we already know that there was research (whatever its quality or rigor) back pre-WWII that was supposed to defend racist theories. And that’s political. So I don’t understand why we would be surprised that there was a (political) backlash once millions ended up dying in part because of that kind of research.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by mcguire on Sunday December 05, 2021 @04:08PM (#29453289)
Note: He is asserting that this fellow: https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/h... is an example of "stark morphological differences".

I have that funny gut feeling, too; I suspect he's more than half-way to deciding that modern races are actually separate species.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by maxerickson on Sunday December 05, 2021 @10:04AM (#29449783)
Keep in mind that species is a human concept and not some natural law.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by sdenton4 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @12:38PM (#29450996)
Taxonomy is a wild world, exactly because species are human inventions. Taxonomists can generally be classified as 'joiners' (who advocate for fewer species) and 'splitters' (who advocate finer divisions). The linked article is written by a splitter. "Can't produce human speech sounds" seems like a good indication that a split in human taxonomy is worthwhile, though.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by xyzzyz on Sunday December 05, 2021 @10:50AM (#29450120)
They are, in the same sense as “rain”, “fog”, “snow”, or “sunny weather” are human concepts, and not natural low. After all, these are invented by humans, blurry on the edges, and sometimes overlap.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by maxerickson on Sunday December 05, 2021 @10:53AM (#29450143)
Sure, but that isn't the point, the point is that if you manufacture categories, you shouldn't then reason forward from the manufactured categories.

"It's snowing so there can't be unfrozen water in the air" or whatever.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by tomca32 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @10:31AM (#29449975)
Is it? I always thought that species is defined as a group that can have fertile offspring.

Horse and donkey, for example are not the same species because their offspring, a mule, is not fertile.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by retrac on Sunday December 05, 2021 @10:43AM (#29450065)
It breaks down with edge cases. There are a few documented "ring species" such as a diverse land-based amphibian around a lake. At all points the adjacent neighbours can mate, but if you take examples from the far side of the lake, they cannot. One species? Two? Infinite?

I think it was Richard Dawkins who extended this idea through time. We could mate (sorry) with our immediate ancestors, who could with theirs, etc. and in fact there's a continual chain like that all the way to any other mammal. When did we stop being our ancestral species and become H. Sapiens? No clear line.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by jjk166 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @02:05PM (#29451935)
A ring species is an example of a species complex, and subpopulations with different but not mutually exclusive breeding compatibility are known as microspecies. If populations with distinct morphological features are isolated in space or time but could still interbreed with eachother if they were to be brought into contact, they are subspecies.

This is really just an instance of Sorites paradox. But the inability to draw a precise line between two (or more) states does not mean there aren't two (or more) states.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by lazide on Sunday December 05, 2021 @12:59PM (#29451191)
It’s the ‘what’s a sandwich’ problem, which is hard. Is a stack of pancakes a sandwich? Is a stuffed pita a sandwich?

What is it that makes a PB&J clearly a sandwich, and excludes a stack of pancakes with butter in between - and doesn’t exclude a club sandwich.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by jjk166 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @02:51PM (#29452435)
If you eat two pancakes with butter between like a sandwich, it is a variant of butter sandwich. If you cut up your PB&J such that you're only eating pieces of bread with some spread on them, that is not a sandwich. The bread must act as a container for the contents during consumption, regardless of ingredients.

More generally, the key delimiter for sandwiches is the aspect ratio of the individual items contained by the bread. For something to be a sandwich, all of the major items inside must have one dimension which is substantially smaller than the other two. Sliced meats, bacon strips, cheese slices, sliced vegetables, lettuce leafs, spreads, patties, etc are all valid. Thinly spread peanut butter and jelly between bread is a sandwich, but a bread bowl with a pool of jelly and peanut butter where the depth is comparable to the radius would not be a PB&J sandwich. Flat cheese slice between bread is a sandwich, mozzarella sticks are not sandwiches. Hot dogs are by default not a sandwich, but if you cut the hot dog into thin strips it becomes a sandwich. An oreo is a sandwich but a quadruple stuffed oreo is not. The only commonly accepted sandwich which this definition claims to be a pseudosandwich is the meatball sub.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by mcbits on Sunday December 05, 2021 @04:23PM (#29453432)
You're carving out a definition to fit intuitive inferences gleaned by observing instances of "sandwich" and "not-sanwich" labeled by influential people in your life who had no objective reasons for constructing and perpetuating those categories in the first place.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by jjk166 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @05:56PM (#29454203)
I agree it would have been a lot easier if we precisely defined the sandwich before foods were invented so we'd know which category to place them in ahead of time, but alas barring the invention of time travel we have to deal with our forefathers' mistakes.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by lazide on Sunday December 05, 2021 @04:08PM (#29453278)
But what about the named club sandwich, which 1) has a width to height ratio so unfavorable it needs toothpicks to hold it together, and 2) often has more bread than ingredients (at sub-par establishments), but sometimes far more ingredients than bread (leveraging the toothpicks).

Regardless of these facts and it not meeting your criteria, it is still both in common usage and by explicit name a sandwich!

(Also, love it!)

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by jjk166 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @05:34PM (#29454027)
It's not the thickness of the sandwich, it's the thickness of the individual things in the sandwich. Everything in a club sandwich is flat, there's just a lot of stuff.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by lazide on Tuesday December 07, 2021 @05:35PM (#29479106)
Many club sandwiches have folded ingredients (with a big loop in it) [https://www.spendwithpennies.com/club-sandwich/]

(Sorry, can't resist keeping this going, this is some good discussion).

It's true I guess that the aspect ratio for most ingredients is 'flat', but many are thicker than the bread, and the whole sandwich is 'sideways' aspect ratio wise.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by wumpus on Sunday December 05, 2021 @03:51PM (#29453111)
You've never thought open faced sandwiches were a subset of sandwiches?
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by jjk166 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @05:47PM (#29454139)
This definition includes open faced sandwiches so long as their contents have the appropriate aspect ratio and you hold them via the bread. If you needed two pieces of bread to make a sandwich then that would rule out everything served on a roll. Pizza is an open faced true sandwich, pancakes are not.

That said, just because something has a word in the name doesn't mean it's a subset of that category. Strawberries aren't berries, english muffins aren't muffins, prairie oysters aren't oysters, black pudding isn't pudding, etc.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by wumpus on Sunday December 05, 2021 @09:43PM (#29455596)
The aspect ratio rule fails for a bagel-with-cream-cheese from a NY food cart, clearly a sandwich, which has a square of cream cheese which is as large as the bagel in 2 of 3 dimensions.

I don't really get how your prescriptive rule means open faced sandwiches somehow "contain" their contents. Then again, since I don't believe in being prescriptive, I don't really care to think hard enough about the contortions of logic required by your approach.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by jjk166 on Monday December 06, 2021 @09:12AM (#29459910)
But it has 1 dimension, it's thickness, which is substantially smaller. You don't have a cube of cream cheese, you have a thin square. Thus it satisfies the aspect ratio rule, which, again, says there is one substantially smaller dimension than the other two.

A container is something which contains. If you can manipulate something by the bread part and the contents stay put, they are contained. While the aspect ratio rule may be legitimately controversial, if you don't restrict your definition of sandwich at least to stuff contained by bread then what isn't a sandwich?

The whole point of this exercise is to taxonomically categorize foods as being sandwiches or not sandwiches, how would you do that without being prescriptive?

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by wumpus on Monday December 06, 2021 @11:55AM (#29462225)
The usual non-prescriptive example is Platonic ideals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_idealism

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by tomca32 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @11:32AM (#29450473)
That’s a pretty interesting edge case.

Now that you’ve said this I do remember Richard Dawkins making that argument. That’s pretty compelling.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by Scarblac on Sunday December 05, 2021 @12:53PM (#29451133)
There are far too many edge cases (e.g. ring species), but it's also not practical. How are you going to decide whether two individuals can't reproduce together, or choose not to? What if all you have are some dead specimens?

It's mostly based on DNA analysis these days, I think.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by inglor_cz on Sunday December 05, 2021 @12:06PM (#29450733)
Even if we limited ourselves to the Homo genus, the rule does not work well.

Based on the admixtures of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in modern humans, we once had a lot of sex with those other humans (and they with us), resulting in fertile offspring, but the differences between us and them are pretty meaningful and probably worthy of not considering us and them just subspecies of the same species.

For example, Neanderthals probably could not vocalize in the same way that we do; and being capable of speaking is quite an important distinction. They had very different anatomy, including that of important joints (shoulders).

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by maxerickson on Sunday December 05, 2021 @10:36AM (#29450008)
You get the occasional fertile mule!
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by tomca32 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @11:30AM (#29450450)
Oh interesting. I had no idea
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by tsimionescu on Sunday December 05, 2021 @03:41PM (#29453016)
Theoretically that wouldn't be a killer issue, since fertile mules are extremely rare, so you could refine the definition to say "is very very likely to produce fertile offspring" (while horses and donkeys breeding is not).

The bigger problem are things that have massive morphological differences but can still successfully interbreed, such as dogs, coyotes and wolves. They produce fertile hybrids and there is good evidence that this occasionally happens in the wild, but nevertheless it is rare and they have clear, stable morphological distinctions, even in areas where they overlap.

Even worse, that definition is entirely useless for paleontology, as it is impossible to know if two individuals species could even interbreed, nevermind knowing if their offspring would be fertile. Even modern genetic evidence (which is extremely rare for fossils anyway) is very open to interpretation on the matter of potential interbreeding ("Neanderthal" genes in modern humans could more or less as easily be common genes older than both H. Sapiens and Neanderthals - we have far too little evidence to be sure, and no chance of genetic material from an older ancestor).

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by AlotOfReading on Sunday December 05, 2021 @09:07PM (#29455406)
If neanderthal or denisovan genes were ancestral, you would be able to find them broadly in African genomes and some of them wouldn't carry adaptations to environments not found in Africa. Instead they reinforce (and inform) our understanding of early human populations out of Africa.
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by sdenton4 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @12:59PM (#29451190)
How do you actually test that as a working ecologist, though? Given two geographically and somewhat morphologically district warblers (for example) you would need to convince two of them to breed (after capturing at least one) and then check viability of an offspring. It's not terribly practical...

Or, in this case with ancient human remains, there's no way to check viability when all subjects have been dead for a hundred thousand years.

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by Dylan16807 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @12:54PM (#29451149)
I think the fertile offspring test would say a lot of these humanoids aren't different species, though?
Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by FundementalBrit on Sunday December 05, 2021 @01:11PM (#29451312)
Is the domestic dog the same species as the coyote or wolf?

All can interbreed all can have fertile offspring with each other. Then look at the genetic variation between all three species.

Yeah this type of science is the stuff which destroys careers...

Re:Too many species have been lumped together into Homo sapiens by nerdponx on Sunday December 05, 2021 @11:11AM (#29450295)
This reminds me of how the scientific community has attempted to handle the public image of climate change or Covid-19.