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Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by pvarangot on Thursday December 02, 2021 @07:51PM (#29425233)
This is propaganda, the US is the only military with operational space drones and space planes. They have the technology and enough budget to defend military and commercial satellites and just looking for political support to actually do so.

The CCP military may be ahead in number of rockets but the US is way ahead in number of spy satellites by a far margin and can also commission civilian capabilities for this.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by mrtnmcc on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:10PM (#29425399)
Joe at The Drive has been writing a ton of Space Force propaganda articles lately.

The Defense Budget is getting debated now and this "news" really does seem aimed at Congress.

Space Force and SDA want to fund their constellation of hypersonic reentry vehicles based on the SpaceX Starlink platform [1,2,3]. It would provide instant kill capability around the world. China is the justification for this massive buildup of weapons in space.

[1] https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/space-based-missile-defense...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_Pebbles (old project now rebooted with SDA)

[3] https://www.nap.edu/download/13189 (Details matching original Starlink orbits, click Download as Guest)

Even a few years ago the cost to launch all this would have been astronomical, but SpaceX has since brought costs down by 1 order of magnitude (or 2-orders with Starship). Still expensive, but within reach with a little warmongering.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by data_acquired on Thursday December 02, 2021 @09:14PM (#29425847)
+1 on this. Virtually all the sources interviewed are connected with the military or the government itself, which fits a propaganda model or at least a very one-sided view on the gravity of the threats. Not to say that the facts and incidents reported are false, but the framing of the narrative is problematic and missing key issues such as ---

1. To what extent are critical satellites already built to handle these threats?

2. How much of an offensive capability does the US already possess in terms of retaliation? [Edit : Seems like there are a ton of programs in existence already! How many more are actually needed?]

3. Are the views represented a minority or a majority view in the defense establishment?

4. Like [1], what do the JASONs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JASON_(advisory_group)) or other groups that do not stand to gain directly from a budgetary increase towards defending such attacks have to say on the opinions of the general quoted in the headline?

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by jandrewrogers on Thursday December 02, 2021 @09:52PM (#29426103)
European governments were raising the issue of increasingly sophisticated attacks against their satellites earlier in the year, which makes it less likely it is pure propaganda (it might still be a budget shout though). The US is well-equipped for this, both defensively and offensively, but the frequency and severity of the attacks has been increasing by all accounts.

While not mentioned in the article, my understanding is that some of the current attacks are only quasi-reversible e.g. some appear to be specifically designed to cause satellites to waste all the fuel in their maneuvering thrusters, greatly shortening their service life.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by Eelongate on Thursday December 02, 2021 @09:50PM (#29426088)
If SpaceX can get Starship flying at the price they predict, it would be a game-changer. Presently that seems like a big 'if'.

It would pay to be the first nation with a Brilliant Pebbles installation, since such an installation could be used to deny any other nation the ability to create the same. Brilliant Pebbles isn't merely an anti-missile system; it could also be used to intercept rockets launching satellites, including the launch other BP systems. It's a winner-takes-all game.

If the strategic interests of America are not your own interests, all of this obviously seems very grim. If you think strategic defense is just a waste of money, then all of this is more of the same. But if you're the sort of person who thinks that billions of dollars spent on nuclear submarines is money well spent, then using Starship to launch a Brilliant Pebbles constellation is a no-brainer.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by djsbs on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:03PM (#29426494)
The Russians new ICBM don't go to space and fly a “low” altitude trajectory to avoid ABM defences. including, it seems, these pebbles.

Anyway, the Russians or the Chinese, if they reasonably feel they’re being denied access to space will trigger the Kessler syndrome. what happens if the Russians counter the 1000 mini-pebbles in space with ten massive satellites filled with TNT, ball bearings and a remote trigger?

Ultimately, thats what I would do if I got bored of the space race. Put enough TNT up there to deny space for everyone if need be.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by Eelongate on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:24PM (#29426602)
ICBMs by definition go to space, the B stands for Ballistic. FOB systems aren't ballistic either (that B stands for Bombardment), but still go to space and Brilliant Pebbles is designed to intercept missiles during the initial boost phase, so it would work against FOB systems too. Brilliant Pebbles, once in place, can stop any satellite launch, including those intended to trigger the Kessler syndrome. Of course, Russia might have such satellites in orbit already...

What Brilliant Pebbles wouldn't be any good against is cruise missiles that remain in the atmosphere, and ultra long range nuclear torpedoes. Russia is working on both, doubtlessly for this very reason.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by djsbs on Friday December 03, 2021 @09:06AM (#29430124)
Ballistic doesn't mean space, it mean paraboloid trajectory. A baseball is ballistic. But I concede your point.

Its pedantic though. The new missiles do have a shallow trajectory specifically to avoid interception including in the boost phase.

Add to that, the Russians have hypersonic missiles.

Starlink wont checkmate the Russians.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by GekkePrutser on Friday December 03, 2021 @02:49AM (#29427655)
I thought brilliant pebbles was long cancelled?
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by Eelongate on Friday December 03, 2021 @04:20AM (#29428151)
At the time the cost to launch it would have been insane since it called for ten thousand or more satellites in LEO. However with Starlink, SpaceX has been promising to demonstrate the ability to economically launch such massive satellite constellations. If they succeed, I expect Brilliant Pebbles to return, although probably under a new name.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by georgeg23 on Sunday December 05, 2021 @03:19AM (#29447686)
Interesting take by one of the SDI/Brilliant Pebbles architects pitching Starlink http://highfrontier.org/january-8-2019-brilliant-pebbles-is-...
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by togglebot1 on Friday December 03, 2021 @02:56AM (#29427684)
Hypersonic tech and reduced launch costs have brought something similar back if the funding keeps coming.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by pvarangot on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:14PM (#29425430)
Yeah following that line of thought I think they are just scrambling for a piece of the budget that's "freed" now that the military doesn't have to sustain operations in Afghanistan anymore. That's what I mean with propaganda.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by WFHRenaissance on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:36PM (#29425573)
I've often wondered whether this article was DOD fundraising propaganda: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40054/adversary-drones...
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by JackFr on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:11PM (#29426210)
Readership of The Drive ain’t where they get their money.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by WFHRenaissance on Friday December 03, 2021 @05:25PM (#29436391)
Fair, but media headlines and intelligence agencies provide similar services.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by kelnos on Thursday December 02, 2021 @09:07PM (#29425799)
I mean of course it's propaganda. The military would have no need (or desire) to disclose this publicly otherwise. But what really matters is whether or not it's true; are there really reversible attacks on US satellites, or is this just saber-rattling and trying to pre-sell US citizens on a new enemy?

I have no idea if it's real or not, but it sounds plausible, at least the passive attacks. It's mere speculation, though, that this can or will escalate to physical, irreversible attacks.

I think it's also likely that the US is conducting the same kinds of reversible attacks on adversaries' satellites, too. Or at the very least, we have the capacity to do so, and have tested it on our own gear.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by friedman23 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:01PM (#29425323)
The conclusion that this is propaganda does not follow from the facts you stated. Anyway, I suspect everything an active US general says is in some form propaganda but the thing that matters is if his statement is true or false. And nothing you've said makes me believe that this general is lying about US satellites being attacked in some manner daily.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by pvarangot on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:04PM (#29425349)
Of course he's not lying, the thing is it's his responsibility that they don't get attacked and he already has the tools to deal with it at his disposal and is not in any way explaining what new thing they need. Also besides the actual stupid test of firing a rocket at a satellite the US military flew and tested technology that's capable of satellite warfare multiple times but "it's classified", they are just being more subtle than others because they can afford to as they are already ahead on the game.

He's just sounding the drums and banging his chest is all.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by mlindner on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:21PM (#29426587)
> This is propaganda, the US is the only military with operational space drones and space planes.

That's blatantly false.

https://time.com/5779315/russian-spacecraft-spy-satellite-sp...

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/09/911113352/new-chinese-space-p...

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by tzs on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:38PM (#29425586)
> This is propaganda, the US is the only military with operational space drones and space planes.

The article is mostly about ground-based attacks, which pretty much everyone can do.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by pvarangot on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:45PM (#29425633)
Nope, only two or maybe three organizations in the world can do that. It's not just firing a rocket if you want to hit a car sized target that's 400km away and moving at 7km/s, you need satellite navigation and global radar coverage to even try it and you are getting cut from that infrastructure way before you reach your target if you perform an unannounced launch that even looks remotely like an orbital attack.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by ravel-bar-foo on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:52PM (#29425687)
The article we are discussing is about laser and EM attacks. Anyone with a software defined radio, a directional antenna, and some skillz can mount ground-based EM hacking attempts on satellites, and there are many academic astronomical facilities with artificial star lasers which could pull off attacks to disable the imagers of spy satellites. (Note that individuals don't because this is the sort of thing that gets spooks knocking at your door.)
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by pvarangot on Thursday December 02, 2021 @11:03PM (#29426495)
Not sure about EM attacks, but I don't think disabling the imager of a spy satellite with a laser from the ground is feasible. If it makes it through the atmosphere it would just scatter or open up too much. Artificial stars shine by reacting with the atmosphere that kinda ends around 30km. LEO imagers fly as low as 240km but are even higher than that usually.

EM "attacks" wouldn't do much except if you are trying to spy on the EM spectrum in that are so they are more like a "defense". They won't make the satellite unusable.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by ravel-bar-foo on Friday December 03, 2021 @06:56AM (#29428994)
If you're trying to blind a spy satellite, you don't need to focus your laser through the atmosphere. Focusing through the atmosphere is what the satellite is built to do! The better the satellite's atmospheric correction, the more effectively your laser will be focused on the imager. Sure, maybe you don't burn it, but if you can saturate the right pixels... (Although the wavelengths used to create artificial stars are probably not ideal.)

Similarly with EM, the holy grail would be to send valid control commands to the satellite, or to jam the satellite during some critical period. Satellites are already designed to receive the signals.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by tzs on Friday December 03, 2021 @09:33AM (#29430428)
This probably moves it out of the realm of an "everyone can do this" thing, but there are also a couple of other approaches that the more advanced and decently funded militaries could use to deal with atmospheric correction. I first heard of tests of these in the late '70s or early '80s.

1. They made a laser that included a phase conjugate mirror such that if you hit the system with some incoming laser light it would greatly amplify it and send it back the way it came.

To use this as a weapon, you'd point it at your target, hit the target with a guide laser, some of that light reflects off the target and enters your phase conjugate laser, and your phase conjugate laser sends a much stronger beam back.

As long as your target is near enough that atmospheric conditions between your weapon and the target have not had a chance to change over the time of a speed of light round trip, all the atmospheric distortions that dispersed the guide laser's reflection to the weapon serve to concentrate the weapon's beam on the target.

2. You can make an energy weapon that uses a phased array of radiators to direct the beam. You aim it in the general direction of your target.

Then you can start varying the phase of each radiator, and you analyze the reflections from the target. If a given radiator happens to be at the right phase so that it is contributing toward producing a maximum or a minimum at the target you won't see much variation in the reflection at the frequency you are varying that radiator's phase. If the phase of the radiator is such that it is in between, you'll see more variation at that frequency in the reflection. (A graph of the radiator's contribution versus phase looks like a sine wave. When it is maximally contributing it is at the peak, when not it is near a zero. Near a peak wiggling side to side doesn't change much because a sine wave is flatter there. When near a zero the sine wave is steep so a little side to side wiggle changes a lot).

Use a different frequency for the phase variation of each radiator, feed what you see reflected into a Fourier analyzer, and use the relative strengths of what you see at the variation frequencies as feedback to adjust the radiator phases, and you can get the array to quickly adjust to by focused on and stay on the target.

They were playing around with a small one of these at Hughes Research Laboratories in the late '70s. I know because the professor [1] who taught APh 23 (Demonstration Lectures in Optics) at Caltech when I took it in the '79-80 school year was also a researcher at Hughes working on it, and one class he showed us a video of a test.

It was pretty cool. It started with a black background and a bunch of blobs of light moving around as the system has nothing to focus on. Then someone dangled a small metal model of the starship Enterprise in front of the background, and all the blobs instantly converged on it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_B._Bridges

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by elliekelly on Friday December 03, 2021 @08:39AM (#29429847)
How easy (or difficult?) is it to determine the origin point of a ground-based attack like the one you described? I imagine the time of day a satellite goes out narrows down the field of possible locations but is it something that can be quickly identified with pinpoint accuracy or something that can only be narrowed down to “it came from somewhere within this 500 mile radius”?
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by 14 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @09:17PM (#29425866)
And I like how they call it an attack while openly saying they were operating spy satellites. Should a country not be expected to prevent spy satellites from spying on them?
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by nradov on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:05PM (#29426175)
No. Spy satellites are legally allowed to operate based on international treaty. Kinetic attacks on them by another nation would clearly be an act of war. RF and cyber attacks are kind of a gray area.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by 14 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:25PM (#29426309)
Can you point to a source in that I’ve never heard such an agreement. Interested to read about it. Thanks.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by nradov on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:49PM (#29426423)
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by 14 on Friday December 03, 2021 @01:58AM (#29427380)
Honestly I gave it a good search on that site and could not find anything to what you claim. What I did find right away on the opening page was this as follows

"These five treaties deal with issues such as the non-appropriation of outer space by any one country, arms control, the freedom of exploration, liability for damage caused by space objects, the safety and rescue of spacecraft and astronauts, the prevention of harmful interference with space activities and the environment, the notification and registration of space activities, scientific investigation and the exploitation of natural resources in outer space and the settlement of disputes.

Each of the treaties stresses the notion that outer space, the activities carried out in outer space and whatever benefits might be accrued from outer space should be devoted to enhancing the well-being of all countries and humankind, with an emphasis on promoting international cooperation."

To me that last part is what I notice. Should be devoted to enhancing the well being of all countries and humankind, with emphasis on promoting international cooperation. So how would spying do any of that? It is more likely to get the other country angry and not cooperate. If there is relevant text that shows spying is actually legal please do show it, I am not saying you are incorrect but I am having a hard time verifying your claim. Do you have a direct source that spells it out? Again, thanks.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by temp_sat_123 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:22PM (#29425485)
Rockets and spaceplanes are not the only threat model. We build commercial satellites that have to contend with jamming attacks and other intentional interference. I'm not one to carry water for the military industrial complex - they hype up threats for more money all the time (see: Hypersonics) - but I can assure you that these attacks are occurring right now.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by ceejayoz on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:58PM (#29425740)
> I can assure you that these attacks are occurring right now.

I can assure you we're doing the same thing, though.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by gpanders on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:34PM (#29426356)
Oh, ok, so I guess it’s all good then?
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by ceejayoz on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:37PM (#29426371)
It makes the pearl clutching a little funny.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by wolverine876 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:12PM (#29426227)
From the OP:

> The systems that Russia and China are known to be developing or have already fielded include destructive and non-destructive types that are deployed from Earth, such as ground-based jammers, lasers, or interceptors, as well as small "killer satellites" positioned in orbit. A killer satellite able to maneuver close to its target could use various means to try to disable, damage, or even destroy it, such as jammers, directed energy weapons, robotic arms, chemical sprays, and small projectiles. It could even deliberately smash into the other satellite in a kinetic attack.

Also, how do the US military's capabilities inform us about what other militaries are doing?

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:20PM (#29425469)
What space plane does the US have? What counts as a drone? Satellites can be steered, are those drones? The article states that Russia is trailing US spy satellites with their own. You make no sense.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by Eelongate on Thursday December 02, 2021 @09:59PM (#29426145)
> What counts as a drone? Satellites can be steered, are those drones?

Traditionally, any remote controlled aircraft is a drone, it seems fair to say any remote controlled spacecraft is also a drone.

The first drone, from which the term 'drone' came, was a radio controlled de Havilland Tiger Moth created in 1935, named "Queen Bee". It was a gunnery target drone, built for the purpose of being shot down, intended to fly only once. 'Drone' is a pun on that single-flight use and the name 'Queen bee'; male bees, which fly only once before dying, are called drones.

These days it's trendy for people to put forth their own definitions of 'drone' that have qualifiers like "it must have autonomy" or "it must be able to land". But the first drone had neither capability and the term itself is at odds with the latter.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by HideousKojima on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:22PM (#29425484)
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by tjpnz on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:26PM (#29425511)
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:29PM (#29425534)
Status: in development
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:23PM (#29425493)
Was going to say that the definition of spaceplane is iffy. It needs a rocket to reach orbit. That's the only one that came to mind.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by baby on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:00PM (#29425312)
oh man... it is really hard to see through news nowadays. What is real, what isn't? That's why transparency is such an important value in organizations and governments. The more transparency, the easier it is to move things in the right direction. That's why I'm confident that China will have a lot of trouble with corruption and long-term growth. But it doesn't mean that we're good at it, and we should strive for Democracy to also imply transparency.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by wolverine876 on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:17PM (#29426257)
> it is really hard to see through news nowadays. What is real, what isn't?

It's not a new problem. From the beginning of the Enlightenment especially, we have developed many tools for discerning truth from falsehood and thinking critically.

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by colechristensen on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:02PM (#29425325)
It’s not nowadays, it has sheets been the case.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by afterburner on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:11PM (#29425403)
Sheets has been
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by colechristensen on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:33PM (#29425555)
Always.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by Rebelgecko on Thursday December 02, 2021 @09:59PM (#29426147)
This is propaganda, the US is the only military with operational space drones and space planes

Can you expand a bit? It doesn't seem like the types of attacks the general mentioned require those capabilities, so the US monopoly on space drones* comes across as a non-sequitor.

* Which I would argue doesn't exist, due to the existence of autonomous vehicles like Буран and 可重复使用试验航天器

Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by hereforphone on Thursday December 02, 2021 @07:57PM (#29425277)
That's the benefit of being an early innovator. That doesn't mean threats don't exist.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by dsjoerg on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:21PM (#29425476)
If you can substantiate your claims they would be interesting.
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by knownjorbist on Thursday December 02, 2021 @10:14PM (#29426236)
If I had to pick among the space-capable powers in the world to be top dog, I'd stick with the US quite frankly
Re:U.S. satellites are being attacked every day according to... by jacquesm on Thursday December 02, 2021 @08:59PM (#29425745)
An audience of 538.