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Re:The Stroad by mcv on Sunday November 21, 2021 @04:33AM (#29295150)
I don't think this article is making the point veey clearly, but it is a very important point: roads are for long distance connections at speed, streets are for local traffic: reaching houses, shops, people. These stroads try to do both and fail at both because the goals are contradictory; you can't have high speed traffic with lots of side streets and crossing traffic, bikes and pedestrians. It will be too slow for a road or too dangerous for a street, and probably both.

Separate traffic that requires different speeds.

Re:The Stroad by wffurr on Sunday November 21, 2021 @09:55PM (#29302213)
Every time I end up on a five lane road with the center turning lane and tons of curb cuts and cross streets and abutting parking lots, I remind myself that it's one of the most dangerous places I am likely to be in.
Re:The Stroad by chestervonwinch on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:07PM (#29302296)
Here in Austin Texas, we have lovely signs to remind you of your imminent crash!

http://austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Sign%201.JP...

Re:The Stroad by gruez on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:36PM (#29302788)
I love the "zero excuses" at the bottom. "now that we informed you of the danger, anything bad happening is entirely your fault and the city can't be held liable for its bad decisions"
Re:The Stroad by nemetroid on Monday November 22, 2021 @02:55AM (#29303932)
I guess it might come across that way, but I was happy to see the "Vision Zero" thing in the bottom left. Vision Zero has been a very successful road traffic policy in Sweden.

> Vision Zero is based on an underlying ethical principle that "it can never be ethically acceptable that people are killed or seriously injured when moving within the road transport system." In most road transport systems, road users bear complete responsibility for safety. Vision Zero changes this relationship by emphasizing that responsibility is shared by transportation system designers and road users.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero

Re:The Stroad by this15testing on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:44AM (#29304233)
I don't think any American city or police department knows what vision zero is. They frequently include the words "vision zero" in their plans or posts, but then car crash deaths continue as normal or even increase.

Using Los Angeles as an example:

https://ladotlivablestreets.org/programs/vision-zero

https://laist.com/news/transportation/2020-traffic-deaths-lo... for the graphic "Traffic violence in Los Angeles" showing the increase since Vision Zero was adopted.

Then you have enforcement issues like jaywalking laws, the wording and culture around collisions and referring to them as "accidents", etc.

The entire country was REbuilt (US cities were not always like this) around the car. Until that changes, no city will reach Vision Zero.

Re:The Stroad by paulgb on Monday November 22, 2021 @07:22AM (#29305574)
Same in NYC. There was some progress for a few years, but then traffic deaths rebounded. The pandemic gets some blame, though it’s a poor excuse for weak leadership and the trend started before that. “Vision Zero” has become the “thoughts and prayers” of traffic deaths.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/30/nyregion/traffic-deaths-n...

Re:The Stroad by prawn on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:58PM (#29302932)
Our equivalent in Australia is a Black Spot:

https://www.snowyvalleys.nsw.gov.au/News-Media/Brungle-Road-...

Re:The Stroad by strken on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:47AM (#29303572)
Slightly different, as the Black Spot Program signs are on former crash sites that have already had improvements made.
Re:The Stroad by selfhoster11 on Monday November 22, 2021 @04:20AM (#29304459)
We used to run this program in Poland too, but new signs haven't been installed since 2003.
Re:The Stroad by bsanr2 on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:22AM (#29306550)
Why not Red or White Spot?
Re:The Stroad by onionisafruit on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:04PM (#29302588)
I don’t remember ever seeing that sign. Where is it posted?
Re:The Stroad by chestervonwinch on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:13AM (#29303372)
I've seen them while cruising S Pleasant Valley, but there are a number of road sections where they're posted: http://austintexas.gov/page/high-injury-roadways
Re:The Stroad by kryogen1c on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:01PM (#29302571)
> one of the most dangerous places I am likely to be in.

i dont know how widely this turn of phrase is used, but where i grew up in the US, we called the middle turn lane in a 5 lane road the suicide lane.

Re:The Stroad by masklinn on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:39AM (#29303522)
Sounds like a derivative from a road style which has (mostly, thankfully) been abandoned: originally, “suicide lanes” designated the center lane of a 3-lane.

A 3-lane is a road design where you’ve got one lane in each direction, and a shared passing lane in the middle.

These used to be quite popular as they were not much more expensive than a 2-lane but allowed better throughput, however as density and speeds increased they became more and more deadly as they’d encourage trying to pass and high-speed frontal collisions.

They’re mostly gone now, replaced by either 2+2 or 2+1 (the latter is very popular in europe, it’s basically a 3-lane except there’s a hard barrier which regularly swaps the center lane’s direction to allow safe passing sections — or more rarely a 1+1 with a protected turn lane).

Re:The Stroad by jacobolus on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:48AM (#29303574)
In Mexico there are still a good number of 3-lane roads where the middle lane is for passing in both directions. A close family friend died on one: head-on collision with a truck passing a truck on a curving mountain road. (He was an aggressive driver who got lucky for decades until one day he finally didn’t.) Truly horrible road design.
Re:The Stroad by frosted-flakes on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:31PM (#29309088)
Middle shared turn lanes are quite safe though, though I don't have actual stats. It's very hard to hit someone in one because no one is driving more than 50 ft in one, and you're always coming to a stop to prepare for a turn. On busy streets they are usually a bit wider than a normal lane, and on 80 km/h highways, they are a full lane-and-a-half wide. On busier residential streets with lots of single family homes, they are a great alternative to two lanes in each direction, because they allow for separated bike lanes and left-turning cars don't block traffic flow. Many 50 km/h roads in my city have been converted like this.

You would never put one in a newly designed road, but when a road needs to be upgraded, they are a great solution.

Re:The Stroad by jake_morrison on Monday November 22, 2021 @02:28AM (#29303781)
I spent a summer in India in the late 1980s (Tamil Nadu). Going between cities, the roads were only partially paved. There were two dirt lanes, with a blacktop middle lane. The trucks would play a continuous game of "chicken", driving at each other until someone lost their nerve.

The newspaper had regular reports of truck "capsizings", where a truck would lose control and turn over. It was common for a truck to have laborers who would fill up the truck with some bulk product like dirt, then ride on the top to go to the destination, then unload it. When one of these trucks capsized, it was a major disaster.

Re:The Stroad by eggsmediumrare on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:06PM (#29302597)
Likewise in Ontario. Strong term, but gets the point across. I also once saw a dump truck with stickers on either side of the tailgate. On the left, "passing side." On the right, "suicide." Had a big impact on my driving habits... I never, ever pass on the right.
Re:The Stroad by gruez on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:40PM (#29302820)
That might make sense for dump trucks because they're bulky and have poor visibility, but what's the increased risk of passing on the right? The only thing I can think of is marginally worse visibility because the right side is slightly further away from the driver's seat. However, I don't think that's enough risk to justify going out of your way to pass on the right. Having to change lanes to pass on the left carries its own risks.
Re:The Stroad by bee_rider on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:30AM (#29304133)
Some cars have a blind spot on their right. Also, the convention is passing on the left, so people are generally less aware of things going on on their right. Of course bad drivers are almost by definition unpredictable, but if some bad driver is going to absent mindedly merge into you, they will probably do it while you are on their right. In particular, distracted people whose texting has been interrupted by their GPS telling them to take the next exit...
Re:The Stroad by mcv on Monday November 22, 2021 @04:13AM (#29304412)
In many countries, it's a hard rule that you need to pass on the left. Passing on the right is only allowed when it's a lane going in a different direction (like an exit), or traffic is moving very slowly (you don't want people changing lanes in a traffic jam to avoid passing on the right).
Re:The Stroad by jamincan on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:19AM (#29306513)
While "keep right except to pass" is technically the law here in Ontario, the de facto standard is that the middle lane is the cruising lane, the left is the passing lane, and the right is basically a second merging lane. This means that it is not uncommon to have stop-and-go traffic in the left two lanes while the right lane is still moving and mostly wide open. Drivers will frequently move right into the middle lane from the ramp even with no traffic in the right lane and not having sped up to the highway speed. It's an complete waste of resources.
Re:The Stroad by bee_rider on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:43AM (#29306759)
Highways are a complicated graph problem I guess, which I'm not very good at, but I wouldn't be surprised if the true bottleneck was some offramp later. So, increasing the throughput of the road leading up to it shouldn't really improve things, right? And leaving rightmost lane less heavily populated might make it easier for cars to do the off/on ramp thing which might make things easier around the bottleneck.

I dunno. People pack in as tightly as possible around here and we still get traffic. I think it is just inevitable.

Re:The Stroad by ljm on Monday November 22, 2021 @05:46AM (#29305009)
Going onto the IdiotsInCars subreddit, it's kind of shocking how commonplace it is for people to undertake other road users by speeding past in the slow lane. It's already more difficult to merge back into a slower lane because you have a much bigger blind-spot (and have to twist your neck a lot more to get a good look), so it doesn't make it any easier if you have to expect that people will be speeding to undertake you.
Re:The Stroad by hef19898 on Monday November 22, 2021 @08:56AM (#29306307)
I hate it when my GPS on my second phone does this!

On a serious note, the overtake left thing (or right for those strange people driving on the wrong side) is a big reason German Autobahn is as safe as it is. Reckless idiots notwithstanding.

Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:01AM (#29302946)
On a 3+ lane road, it increases the risk of two people merging into each other as they both try to pass.
Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:38PM (#29302803)
Unfortunately the majority of people don't seem to understand they're not allowed to pass on the right (and they never get pulled over for it).
Re:The Stroad by sokoloff on Monday November 22, 2021 @02:47AM (#29303870)
If slower traffic kept right, there’d be a lot less passing on the right. (If you’re getting passed on the right regularly, you might consider your own lane discipline as well as that of those passing you.)
Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:29PM (#29309045)
Yes, this is also true, but I think the bigger problem is just speeding. People on the left are usually moving faster than people on the right or middle, on average, but some people want to go 20-30 mph over the speed limit. Normally I'd pull to the right so they can pass, but by the time I start doing that they're already starting to change lanes too!
Re:The Stroad by sokoloff on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:46PM (#29310115)
True. If you take a highway that people feel is reasonable and prudent to drive at 75-85 mph and post it as 55, people will drive 20-30 mph over. I think the problem is more likely the 55 signage in that case.
Re:The Stroad by ehnto on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:33PM (#29302766)
I wonder how much that specific road design cause FedEx to discourage left hand turns in their routes?
Re:The Stroad by bobthepanda on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:34AM (#29303482)
I think you're thinking of UPS, and IIRC the decision is mostly to reduce waiting time/idle fuel burn. (Most jurisdictions in the US allow right-on-red and that makes this even easier to justify.)
Re:The Stroad by p1mrx on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:56AM (#29303626)
If I go somewhere often, I like to find the "chill route" that minimizes complex left turns, even if it takes a bit longer.
Re:The Stroad by ehnto on Monday November 22, 2021 @02:28AM (#29303780)
Same, I don't even mind if it takes a bit longer. I am more interested in stress free driving than getting there sooner.
Re:The Stroad by SantalBlush on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:05PM (#29302593)
I've also called it that for as long as I can remember, and it's probably helped me drive more defensively around that lane. Drivers misuse it all the time.
Re:The Stroad by bckr on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:55PM (#29302905)
The only other time I have heard that was during my driving test on small town California
Re:The Stroad by timvdalen on Monday November 22, 2021 @04:11AM (#29304397)
I had to look up a 'center turning lane'. Is this[1] it? That looks incredibly dangerous.

[1]: https://www.wikihow.com/Use-the-Center-Turning-Lane

Re:The Stroad by wffurr on Monday November 22, 2021 @06:55AM (#29305421)
That's exactly it, except with businesses with parking lots on each side and lots of cars pulling in and out. Also a 55 mph speed limit that's routinely ignored unless there's enough traffic to slow everyone down.

Colloquially called a "suicide lane".

Re:The Stroad by mcv on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:22PM (#29311171)
The way it's shown on that page, it looks like every part of that lane can be used in both directions. In Netherland we do have separate lanes to turn left, but only before an intersection, and only to be used in the direction towards that intersection. People turning left in the other direction will be on the other side of the intersection. There will be lines on the road directing you where you're supposed to go. The left-turning lane will have a very limited length, only existing near the intersection that it's for. Also, I think there are usually traffic lights ensuring safe crossing for left-turners.

Having just a general all-purpose two-directional left-turning lane looks incomprehensibly dangerous to me.

Re:The Stroad by sokoloff on Monday November 22, 2021 @04:51AM (#29304647)
It is, but they’re more common on one travel lane each way streets.

When evaluating the danger of such a design, you have to consider the alternatives. You’re probably considering 3/4 head on collisions from drivers misjudging the turn. Those happen, but how many rear-end collisions are avoided?

Re:The Stroad by wffurr on Monday November 22, 2021 @07:23AM (#29305579)
The center turning lane isn't there to avoid rear end collisions, which are only problematic due to too-high speeds in a commercial area.

They are about improving throughput.

What makes them dangerous, particularly in the five lane configuration, is the poor visibility for crossing uncontrolled intersections of multiple traffic lanes.

Re:The Stroad by hef19898 on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:09AM (#29306423)
Center turning with five lanes? wow, that's crazy...
Re:The Stroad by wffurr on Monday November 22, 2021 @10:04AM (#29307011)
The examples in the article show anywhere from 5 to 7 lanes. The outermost lanes in one of the 7-lane examples are parking lanes.

There's a stroad on Staten Island that scares the crap out of me - Hylan Blvd. I have family that live on it. It's six lanes with a median, but sometimes and in certain places parking is allowed in the outermost lanes. So you can suddenly come up on parked traffic but only at certain times of day in certain places. It's totally insane.

To get in the driveway, you have to loop the block to the closest light, wait for the green, and then drive halfway down the block and back-in before the light changes and traffic starts up. It's quite stressful.

Re:The Stroad by hef19898 on Monday November 22, 2021 @10:19AM (#29307226)
Over here we have that, well something similar, outside of towns and cities for one lane. In cities max 2 lanes, with a 50 kmh speed limit. And those are rare, street cross section have traffic lights and those from parking lots are scary enough. And slow enough, it is sometimes faster to not cross lanes and just turn around at the next traffic light.
Re:The Stroad by tomjakubowski on Monday November 22, 2021 @02:29PM (#29310617)
Commonplace in suburban Chicago.
Re:The Stroad by jmacc1 on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:29PM (#29311226)
A common thing I see drivers in my city do is pull into the center turning lane and then merge into their intended lane when doing a left turn. It's super illegal afaik, but I see it done all the time, I've even seen police do it. Of course, the alternative to this maneuver is waiting a very long time until both lanes are clear before turning because the stroad you're turning left on is extremely congested (though not extraordinarily congested in my cities case)
Re:The Stroad by closeparen on Sunday November 21, 2021 @10:46PM (#29302496)
We have lots of slow and calm streets in American suburbia, and we love them that way. We value this calm so much that we refuse to admit shopping or even multi-family housing to them, for fear of disturbing it. These uses have to go somewhere, so they go where there is no presumption of an entitlement to low traffic, and that’s the road.

The businesses hardly complain; they love to be where the greatest numbers of eyeballs and potential impulse shoppers are going by.

Maybe you could start with a strong street vs. road discipline, but I would predict that within 40 years any American polity will surely break it, and the stroad will re-emerge.

Re:The Stroad by ehnto on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:41PM (#29302827)
Mixed use medium density is my urban nirvana. Anywhere I have been with it just makes so much sense for daily life at person scale. Cars tricked us into thinking life can be comfortable spread across large distances and I think we are suffering in various ways for it.

I am reminded of that cartoon where aliens arive on earth, and assume that cars are the dominant species, since so much of our world has been dedicated to them.

https://youtu.be/wFaHArkYLsM

Re:The Stroad by closeparen on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:46PM (#29302851)
Suburbanites hate cars too, and that’s why they’ll never let you have mixed use. It would perhaps eliminate the snarl in commercial areas, but it would also bring some portion of that traffic into what are now quiet residential sanctuaries.
Re:The Stroad by mcv on Monday November 22, 2021 @04:47AM (#29304620)
But American suburbia seems entirely designed around cars. Exactly because there are no shops nearby, you need to take the car for everything. If there were shops around the corner, there would be far less need for cars in these streets.

When I go to the shop, I walk or take my bike. And even here, the shops aren't in my street, but there's a small shopping center (with two supermarkets, a pharmacy, two drugstores, a bakery, a butcher, two organic food shops, a small bookstore, a fast food place, a pizza place, and some other shops) two streets over. It's easy to reach by car, but even easier to reach on foot by the entire neighbourhood they serve.

In the other direction, there's the big shopping street of the next neighbourhood over, still walkable, though it's more than a kilometer so I always take my bike, and there's tons more shops and great restaurants there. It's an older neighbourhood, more a shopping street than a shopping center, and cars constantly clog that street. Maybe less fun to live in that street, but it's still a very popular street to live in. Personally I'd prefer to see cars banned from that street, but maybe that's not an option for some reason.

Still, it's a great neighbourhood and a great shopping street, and it's nice to have not one but two such shopping areas close to my home. (There's a third not far from that second one, which had a fantastic cheese shop and has a daily market.)

Re:The Stroad by closeparen on Monday November 22, 2021 @11:46AM (#29308445)
It is designed around pushing cars away from houses. The thing about walkable neighborhoods is that they’re nice to visit. If you live near one, those visitors will be near your home. To a suburbanite this is unacceptable.
Re:The Stroad by mcv on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:26PM (#29311209)
Where I live, every neighbourhood is walkable. There's nothing special about it. Sure, people walk past our house. They're our neighbours and we say hi.
Re:The Stroad by bobthepanda on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:37AM (#29303504)
A neighborhood street that literally cannot allow through traffic is not really conducive for high-traffic stores, but really more like low-traffic uses like a convenience store or a hair salon or a daycare, many of which also generally tend to be prohibited by overly restrictive residential zoning.
Re:The Stroad by joshlemer on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:20AM (#29306527)
Exactly. This video makes that point so crystal clear: https://youtu.be/dqQw05Mr63E

Car-dependent suburbia is about imposing your car on everyone else while not allowing anyone else to impose their cars on you. It is inherently selfish city design.

Re:The Stroad by paulgb on Monday November 22, 2021 @07:37AM (#29305695)
Generalizing a bit, it seems that suburbanites hate other people’s cars, but are OK needing to drive everywhere, whereas urbanites hate having a car-dependent lifestyle.
Re:The Stroad by adrianN on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:41AM (#29303171)
I don't understand how people think that cars zipping by at high speeds is particularly conductive to impulse shopping. When I'm traveling at high speeds I usually have a goal I want to reach quickly and don't have time to follow any impulses.
Re:The Stroad by mcv on Monday November 22, 2021 @04:55AM (#29304679)
Exactly. These are two different types of traffic that need to be separated from each other. Maybe have fast 1+1 or 2+2 road in the center for through traffic, with the occasional connection to slow parallel streets to access the shops. Make the center road a level higher or lower so everybody can cross it everywhere without interfering with the through traffic. That way you're still serving both purposes, but a lot more safely and efficiently.
Re:The Stroad by occz on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:42AM (#29303535)
> We value this calm so much that we refuse to admit shopping or even multi-family housing to them, for fear of disturbing it.

With single-family zoning being the overwhelming norm in the U.S, it would be unfair to call this a refusal - the supply is artificially constrained. Had multi-family housing been legal to build, then it's pretty likely that people would move into them at higher rates.

Re:The Stroad by JohnWhigham on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:38AM (#29306712)
This is precisely why nothing is going to change in the US in terms of urban planning: people love living in the suburbs.
Re:The Stroad by N1H1L on Monday November 22, 2021 @05:17PM (#29312190)
I remember driving through suburbian Atlanta at night a few months back, and there was this road that was 6 lines wide through a residential area, with a speed limit of 40 mph. That road was legitimately wider and straighter than Interstate 75, which I hopped on to in a few minutes.

While driving through that stroad, I remember thinking that the only people who benefit from this planning disaster is the local PD, as every corner gas station had cop cars hidden with their lights switched off.

Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:27AM (#29303088)
But this isn't how the world works. It's not Simcity where you lay down neat grids of zones and the dutiful citizens follow your orders. People will want to take advantage of cheap(er) land alongside your "road" so that they can own a house while still having reasonable access to the "street". And boom now you have a stroad.

Attempting to use zoning to stop that runs into the problem that by and large people don't want to live in dense areas. Most of them want the cheap home in the burbs. And they'll vote for those that give it to them.

This is the root problem with Strongtowns and their ilk. They love to navel gaze and contemplate the platonic ideal of how a city should be laid out. But for the most part fail to provide a viable option that people can and will choose.

Re:The Stroad by scrollaway on Monday November 22, 2021 @07:20AM (#29305566)
What.

No, strong towns "and their ilk" (biased much?) provide an unlimited supply of solutions to a variety of problems. If you're not seeing them it's because you don't want to see them.

There isn't a "now the city is better" red button you can hit. It takes a lot of effort to get there. One of the efforts is in fact a marketing one: you need to spread awareness of where the problems actually are and why they are a problem. Stroads are a good example; I had never realized they were a problem, but since I discovered them I've been noticing them whenever traveling and thinking a lot about the implications and how they could be redesigned in that spot.

Stroads are very difficult to find in western Europe by the way, compared to the US. In some countries they're non existent. Clearly you're mistaken about how they can and will just appear out of nowhere. Maybe things are more nuanced and complex than your three second opinion lets on.

Re:The Stroad by woah on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:32AM (#29303117)
You're wrong. People want to live in walkable cities. Property prices prove this.
Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:35AM (#29303131)
And the reason people often move out with kids is that it's too expensive to own a large-enough property for most people due to the high demand for walkable places.
Re:The Stroad by adgjlsfhk1 on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:40AM (#29303161)
there's a very simple solution then. build more walkable places.
Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:46AM (#29303208)
If only it were so simple. Building walkable places is illegal almost everywhere in the US due to onerous parking minimums, regulations about street design and restrictive zoning. It's still possible to build walkable places with highrises, but low-rise walkable areas like https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9181247,-87.6517955,3a,60y,7... are almost lost art in the US. There are entire major metro areas in the US with no street like this.
Re:The Stroad by mcv on Monday November 22, 2021 @05:03AM (#29304749)
Exactly. And it's those policies that need to change. But because this is such a lost art, and because Americans have been raised to believe in the car-centric suburban dream, most people don't even know that this is an option. It's a policy issue, but also an awareness issue.
Re:The Stroad by captainmuon on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:43AM (#29304223)
I wonder why nobody just changes these regulations. Sure it's difficult and you won't get a majority in most places, but I find it hard to understand why not at least some cities designate a small area as a "model community" and relax zoning and parking requirements.
Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @10:33AM (#29307439)
This is happening to some extent (e.g. Chicago removing parking minimums near transit stations, Houston removing parking minimums in two downtown-adjacent neighborhoods) but mainly only in large cities. Parking minimums are especially onerous since they almost ensure you can only build strip malls for retail.
Re:The Stroad by occz on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:46AM (#29303561)
It's illegal to build them under most zoning laws in the U.S.
Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:51AM (#29303230)
Walkable places are inherently more expensive because they lack economy of scale. It's why Dunkin Donuts can sell a dozen for $10 but it costs ~$20 for half a dozen at my local walkable place. Granted, there is a quality of ingredients difference but not 4x the cost.
Re:The Stroad by wilkommen on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:03AM (#29303311)
No, it's the suburbs that lack economy of scale. The walkable areas contribute far more per acre in taxes than the suburbs. They also require fewer resources to maintain per person because they're physically smaller. The suburbs have such a paucity of "economies of scale" that municipalities around the country have gone into debt to support them.

The reason donuts cost more at your local walkable place is because real estate prices are higher in walkable places, because walkable places are so in-demand that as a nation we've bid the prices of those places to the moon. So we ought to change our zoning rules so that the market can build more of them. That's the whole point of Strong Towns idea.

Re:The Stroad by tbihl on Monday November 22, 2021 @06:29AM (#29305260)
Plus the Dunkin Donuts was gifted expensive public infrastructure since, in all likelihood, they have a 10 year tax incentive that prevents them from paying almost any property taxes.
Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:30PM (#29309081)
Dunkin Donuts also doesn't bake their donuts on premises (with a few exceptions). Surprise, you can get even cheaper (and shittier) donuts at the dollar store!
Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:28AM (#29306614)
>No, it's the suburbs that lack economy of scale. The walkable areas contribute far more per acre in taxes than the suburbs. They also require fewer resources to maintain per person because they're physically smaller. The suburbs have such a paucity of "economies of scale" that municipalities around the country have gone into debt to support them.

Yes, Strong towns loves to say this too despite it being obviously not true.

Infrastructure stuff like roads and pipes and so on is cheap. Usually 10-15% of the budget. The real cost of government is in providing services to people. And those are invariably more expensive in the cities than the suburbs.

Show me even one city in the US that has lower taxes and spends less per Capita than the surrounding suburbs.

Re:The Stroad by kortex on Monday November 22, 2021 @11:04AM (#29307865)
That's not the right metric though. Cities and suburbs are not comparable in terms of overall experience. The extra services you cite are one of the reasons why.

For one, suburbs are pretty economically difficult for low-earning households. Low earners are more likely to live in cities, therefore cities tend to have more social services.

You need to do an apples-to-apples comparison, which unfortunately is not easy.

Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @11:27AM (#29308183)
The services (schools, police, fire) aren't better in a city. They're more expensive and usually significantly worse.
Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:18PM (#29308887)
I mean City of Chicago has lower property tax rates than suburbs (due to the large amount of taxable commercial property in the city).
Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:08PM (#29309647)
Tax rate is only half of the calculation so it's a meaningless number on its own. Plus, there's sales tax and other assorted fees.
Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @04:33PM (#29311815)
At least in Illinois, valuations are determined at the county level, and the majority of sales tax is also county-level. All things being equal, more commercial property (and tourism) moves some of the burden to taxpayers outside the city. Comparing Chicago to the neighboring suburb of Oak Park, sales tax in Chicago is 10.25% vs. 10% in Oak Park, but property taxes are nearly double in Oak Park. Maybe things like rental cars or hotels are taxed less, but that's not a big impact.

Of course property tax rates are inversely correlated with property values so it's a bit tricky to compare, but the point is it's not always true that suburbs have lower taxes than the central city. Transportation costs are also typically much lower in cities (transit fares/passes are typically significantly cheaper than car ownership).

Re:The Stroad by xmprt on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:57AM (#29303628)
You have it completely backwards. Suburbs aren't scalable. That's why back in the 50s-70s when they were first built, they were amazing, but today, they are rife with traffic problems, noise pollution, and crumbling infrastructure.
Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:15AM (#29306475)
The percentage of the population living in the suburbs is growing, not shrinking.
Re:The Stroad by ZoomerCretin on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:15PM (#29308826)
"O(n^2) sorting time doesn't scale." "The amount of data we are going to sort in O(n^2) is growing, not shrinking."

Notice how the second statement doesn't disprove the first.

Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:57AM (#29303272)
There are plenty of Dunkin Donuts stores in walkable places. I have a Dunks across the street from my condo and another one around the corner (and several others several blocks away). (I live in this area, which is VERY walkable: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8822495,-87.6254941,1122a,35...)

It's true there are also other, superior, options, but that's a bonus!

Re:The Stroad by fragmede on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:34AM (#29304164)
Is that actually true? That's absolutely true in SF, but the Bay Area is bonkers for lots of reasons, housing prices is a well known one so I want to be careful about extrapolating from there.
Re:The Stroad by danielvaughn on Monday November 22, 2021 @06:39AM (#29305310)
It's true. The Not Just Bikes channel has a video on walkable neighborhoods in the US. They're all massively expensive because of the high quality of life.

edit: here it is - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0

Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:47AM (#29303212)
But they choose not to. US population is roughly 1/2 suburban, 1/4 rural, and 1/4 urban. Which backs up my point.
Re:The Stroad by hannasanarion on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:14AM (#29303383)
How much of that is "choice"? People can only live in places that exist, and places that exist must be constructed in compliance with certain government standards, and the government standards for the US for the last fifty years have been all cars, all the time. In most places, it is illegal to build a house without a garage, or a bar without a parking space for every stool.

The law mandates that everyone drive everywhere whether they want to or not.

Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:18AM (#29306505)
None of this is true. You can easily find dense walkable places to live. You will just pay more money for a much smaller house. Your living expenses will be higher. And you'll have to rely on public transportation which is a pain in the ass when you have small kids.

It's easy to see why people choose the suburbs.

Re:The Stroad by eutropia on Monday November 22, 2021 @05:32PM (#29312349)
People will continue to choose the wildly tax-subsidized option, yes.

If people in the suburbs had to pay enough property tax to recoup their share for the cost of roads, water, sewage, electric, telecoms, mail and other ancillary services to their large, non-productive plot of land, they'd likely consider other options.

Suburbs look nice in the short term, before the roads need repaving and the utilities need major overhauls; but the total lifetime cost to the public far exceeds how much tax they bring in.

Re:The Stroad by hannasanarion on Tuesday November 23, 2021 @12:08AM (#29314793)
Dense walkable places exist, but they are diminishing because in most places they are illegal to construct. No new walkable places have been built for nearly a half century, and many of our old ones have been bulldozed to make room for empty parking lots and jammed highways.
Re:The Stroad by occz on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:45AM (#29303556)
>But they choose not to. US population is roughly 1/2 suburban, 1/4 rural, and 1/4 urban. Which backs up my point.

With single-family zoning being the norm in the U.S, it would be unfair to call this a choice. The supply of other types of housing is severely constrained.

Re:The Stroad by cozzyd on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:00AM (#29303295)
There are entire metro areas where there are effectively zero walkable areas. People there don't have much of a choice at all!
Re:The Stroad by whatshisface on Monday November 22, 2021 @12:58AM (#29303281)
There may be forces at work behind that other than individual home preferences.
Re:The Stroad by boondaburrah on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:28AM (#29303450)
You are mistaken that they have a choice.
Re:The Stroad by mcv on Monday November 22, 2021 @05:01AM (#29304731)
I just watched a video in response to this story that explained how zoning in North America is actually too much like SimCity, with very restrictive homogenous zoning and no mixed zoning at all. It's mixed zoning that allows people to live closer to the shops for their daily needs, and that reduces traffic.

These shops aren't on the stroad because the US is an anarchy where everything goes, they're there because it's designed that way. But the design is inefficient and dangerous.

Re:The Stroad by bobthepanda on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:39AM (#29303520)
we do have roads where we prohibit driveways onto them. They're called Interstates. somehow we don't have massive issues with people illegally building driveways onto them.

It kills me that US road planners don't even bother putting in medium-term solutions that would fix most of the issues, like a road with separated through lanes in the middle and a one-lane service road for the driveways.

Re:The Stroad by quantumwannabe on Monday November 22, 2021 @01:55AM (#29303616)
Those exist in some areas of the country. Here's an example: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5823608,-111.9504203,3a,75y,...
Re:The Stroad by Baeocystin on Monday November 22, 2021 @03:07AM (#29303997)
Lots of them in San Diego, too. Here's an example in Clairemont, which is an early post-war suburb. Note that the homes pictured are also 'missing middle' construction.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8276267,-117.2033566,3a,75y,...

https://missingmiddlehousing.com/

Re:The Stroad by bobthepanda on Monday November 29, 2021 @04:03PM (#29385262)
My problem with this is that it is the exception and not the rule. Even this is the case; that type of service road access is only on one side of the road.

This ofc doesn’t solve everything, like how crossing a super wide stroad is terrible for both cars and non-motorized users given the large number of conflict points, the long cycle times needed to move cars through fat intersections, etc.

Re:The Stroad by Baeocystin on Monday November 29, 2021 @04:19PM (#29385420)
For what it's worth, I actually lived in the pictured neighborhood, and having that simple 25-MPH max offset from the main road was so much nicer than when I lived right up next to a 35MPH road, even though the larger road was 45. It was also great to be able to walk across the street to the grocery store. The street width really wasn't an issue.
Re:The Stroad by treis on Monday November 22, 2021 @09:21AM (#29306537)
That's clearly a stroad. 1,000 feet away from where you linked to are shops and restaurants.
Re:The Stroad by tbihl on Monday November 22, 2021 @06:27AM (#29305242)
>This is the root problem with Strongtowns and their ilk. They love to navel gaze and contemplate the platonic ideal of how a city should be laid out. But for the most part fail to provide a viable option that people can and will choose.

They fail to provide a viable option because, as they point out, cities are complicated so universal prescriptions will fail. If no one in your place cares enough to come up with a local solution, then any intervention would have failed anyway, as we've seen for decades with aid work throughout the world.

Most of what they do is showing that what we have now is on a predictable, medium-term trajectory to insolvency by its fundamental financial unsound structure. Their 'ilk', so much as they have any, would be Urban3, who do GIS mapping of financial productivity within cities. So, 'navel gazing', I guess.

Re:The Stroad by Vinnl on Monday November 22, 2021 @07:17AM (#29305551)
And yet somehow the country I live in has proper streets. I see that more often, where things are dismissed as "not viable" in the US even though they actually exist elsewhere.
Re:The Stroad by timwaagh on Monday November 22, 2021 @11:00AM (#29307818)
You might have a parallel street immediately next to the road but separate from it. That way people or business can be next to a road but will not block traffic. It's what we often do here. Those then will be connected to the road at some point via a side street. I have never seen a multi lane road with a lot of intersections and parking space next to it, immediately adjacent to stores. We don't have 'turning lanes' either. I'm really wondering whether they are cherry picking these things for badness or whether it's really very common in the States.