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Re:10 years of whatever this has been by voz_ on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:00AM (#29262409)
1) You're right, and perhaps its a position of privilege to say this, but this does not seem to be a real problem worth solving? I've transacted a lot of money, both ingress and egress, buying a modest home, a car or two, paying off student loans, etc. No one has ever tried to censor me.

2) Beyond censorship, one needs safety. It may not be censored, but its certainly traceable, so how useful is the lack of censorship without anonymity?

3) If we take it that it solves this (both 1 and 2), then moving on to the other part of the question, how does it solve it better than any other distributed infrastructure? You could build a censorship resistant payment system without the insanely excessive hoarding of base wealth (like the gold mining analogy in the payment article), and without the insane environmental impact.

4) Let's say it solves 1, and 2, but we can't do better and I am wrong in 3. Is this problem worth the massive environmental cost to solve?

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by mrb on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:46AM (#29262706)
«No one has ever tried to censor me»

No offense, but that's a very egocentric view. You may be (probably) a middle/upper-class westerner who has never encountered censorship, but I assure you there are billions (literally) of people on the planet for whom censorship is an issue.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by querez on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:27AM (#29262977)
So another spin on what you're saying is that middle/upper-class westerners have no use for blockchain, which certainly is in line with my experience that the only people who really need to rely on cryptocurrencies are ransomware people.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by bradwood on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:50AM (#29263116)
Yeah. And anyone unlucky enough to live in a place where the govt fucked the local fiat currency with hyperinflation. Zimbabwe, Turkey, Lebanon, Argentina, Venezuela, etc.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by franga2000 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:44AM (#29263758)
The problem still remains of how do you get crypto if all you have is near-worthless paper. Who would trade it to you? How much crypto is actually "produced" internally? International traders wouldn't want your shitty fiat.

Wouldn't it make more sense to use fiat from elsewhere like EUR or USD? There's probably already a decent stream of it into the country (from exporters and remote workers) so exchange could be done internally, lessening the above problem. Its value is far more stable than any crypto, it can actually be used in foreign trade without lossy conversions, it's just as easy to use, you can get bank accounts, etc.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by mettamage on Thursday November 18, 2021 @08:25AM (#29265085)
> International traders wouldn't want your shitty fiat.

I'm sure there are local traders savvy enough to get a +30% premium in local cash which they then immediately exchange for more durable assets.

So international traders wouldn't but national ones that know the country, they would.

If I could sell my crypto for +30% and then immediately use that money to buy gift cards at a store (just brainstorming here) and could put those online and redeem them and cash out with a 10% slippage, allowing me to keep +20%. Why wouldn't I do it?

I don't know such a method since I'm Western-European. But if I'd be from Venezuela, then I'd know to what extent a plan like this is feasible among: friends, family and perhaps even certain strangers.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by CryptoPunk on Thursday November 18, 2021 @08:28AM (#29265116)
These places have wealth, in the form of foreign currencies like the USD, real property, businesses, commodities, etc. Their national currencies rapidly depreciates though, so it can only be used for short-term liqudity purposes.

>>Wouldn't it make more sense to use fiat from elsewhere like EUR or USD?

That's a good question. The only use-case I can see where cryptocurrencies are a better fit is when digital/international payments need to be made. Crypto allows that without any formal approval, from the state, for a USD/EUR supporting payments/e-wallet/banking firm to operate in that country.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by emteycz on Thursday November 18, 2021 @03:17PM (#29269933)
It could (in combination with Lightning) function as alternative to card payments in places where banking systems aren't functional.

Also international waters.

Also digital goods.

However it won't be soon. It's financial infrastructure - just different from the ordinary. And that takes decades to build. Cards were accepted at only few establishments at first too.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by CryptoPunk on Thursday November 18, 2021 @07:39PM (#29272456)
ERC20 stablecoins on zk-Rollups could function in that role. Lightning not so much.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by emteycz on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:13AM (#29264205)
No, in these places banks will steal your money.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by marcosdumay on Thursday November 18, 2021 @08:53AM (#29265339)
Those people still overwhelmingly prefer dollars.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by FlyingSnake on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:57AM (#29263159)
> middle/upper-class westerner

So is the view that PayPal/Zille will block their transactions.

> billions of people for whom censorship is an issue I would love to read a source on that. PayPal/Venmo isn’t the de facto exchange in the world and many newly industrialised countries have robust p2p payment systems like mPesa/UPI.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by sweetbitter on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:28AM (#29262982)
1) This indifferent attitude is what enables censorship to occur in the first place.

2) Not all currencies have the privacy implications of Bitcoin.

3) Not all currencies have the inherent environmental cost that 'proof of work' currencies like Bitcoin do. Is preventing the hoarding of wealth really a goal here?

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by oblio on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:09AM (#29264176)
Regarding censorship, that will continue. Anti money laundering laws for example tend to popular support. If crypto wins out it will have to have a mechanism for blocking or canceling some transactions due to people with guns deciding that.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by wmf on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:18AM (#29262506)
You could build a censorship resistant payment system without the insanely excessive hoarding of base wealth

A key tenet of crypto is that you cannot, in fact, do that. To make the system secure it needs to make the people running it rich or they wouldn't bother. This is debated, of course, but so far blockchains that don't have "number go up" have been stillborn.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by unclebucknasty on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:34AM (#29262621)
>it needs to make the people running it rich or they wouldn't bother. This is debated

I don't think this is even debatable anymore. We were promised decentralization and transaction costs at a fraction of traditional payments. Instead we have astronomical transaction/gas fees and effective centralization around a different cast of characters.

Of course there are positives. For instance, if you are sending large sums, it can be cost-effective. But, this is far from the world of micropayments and fractional penny transaction costs, and that money is going somewhere.

Seems pretty clear that we've just dislocated some percentage of the financial incumbents to create new ones. And, even the old incumbents are buying back in. Reminds me of the early promise of the Internet itself giving way to corporate overlords and capital.

I'm not anti-crypto, but it is kind of silly to keep pretending it's close to or even on track to realizing its early promise.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by BoiledCabbage on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:18AM (#29262922)
> Seems pretty clear that we've just dislocated some percentage of the financial incumbents to create new ones. And, even the old incumbents are buying back in. Reminds me of the early promise of the Internet itself giving way to corporate overlords and capital.

And yet again a bunch of tech-enthusiasts are forced to face that fact that their breakthrough technology does not infact lead to the techno-utopia they imagined, and instead is heavily directed by human factors, and leveraged/exploited by the same types of systems and entities that had the most power/influence prior to it.

Can't wait till we start again on this cycle with widely deployed machine learning systems in about 15 years. The same exact arguments of "it's just a technology." "It doesn't matter how it will be used in society." "By nature it's more [democratic/egalatarian/...]" "It will help to remove people problems by being tech".

Which will yet again change to: "Wait what?" "Not like that." "It's not supposed to be used like that". "It's been corrupted and taken over by X. Who could've foreseen this??"

If you're designing tech without designing how it will interact with society, you're just designing foot-guns. Hopefully at somepoint as an industry we'll get past this stage from teenage "look what I can do isn't this cool" to resonsible adult "Yes I have the freedome/ability to do this, and here's how I'll do it responsibly."

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by ikt on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:45AM (#29263086)
How is nano (a zero fee blockchain that has no impact on the environment that's based on ethereum) centralised?
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by franga2000 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:54AM (#29263811)
https://hub.nano.org/i/merchants/4

> 52 Results

As GP said, "stillborn"

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by ikt on Friday November 19, 2021 @06:29PM (#29283961)
it's amazing for sending currency overseas with minimal fees, merchants aren't necessary for this
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by pcthrowaway on Thursday November 18, 2021 @08:38AM (#29265198)
Are you saying Nano is based on Ethereum? Because it's not. Or if you mean the environmental impact claims are based on Ethereum... that's sort of true (Bitcoin is still the biggest offender here, but Ethereum currently also has a significant impact).

However, Ethereum is moving to proof-of-stake, so this won't be relevant once that transition is complete.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by ikt on Friday November 19, 2021 @06:28PM (#29283947)
sorry yeah, i duno why i thought nano was an erc20
[dead]
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by cpursley on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:42AM (#29263744)
Ah, the old "but what about the children" argument.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by tux1968 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:48AM (#29262710)
There's already a mechanism for that, it's the legal system. We don't need another shadow force of executioners.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by oblio on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:11AM (#29264188)
1. That shadow force is regulated by the legal system.

2. If the centralized legal system is needed, then what's the point? The immutable crypto ledger say GO, the people with guns say NO. Which one's right?

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by throwaway248329 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @09:10AM (#29265534)
The point is that you can grab your Bitcoin and move to a less disturbing jurisdiction.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by throwaway248329 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:31AM (#29263000)
Don't forget WikiLeaks. /s
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by verve_rat on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:45AM (#29264384)
Or anyone trying to earn a living on OnlyFans.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by errantmind on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:06AM (#29262437)
As for '4', you have an implicit assumption that I see a lot on HN. No, BTC doesn't have a massive environmental cost. Please re-examine that premise.

https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-energy/

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by kmonsen on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:41AM (#29262679)
Bitcoin is perhaps a rounding number today (my guess is that it is more than that due to Chinese miners not reporting energy usage correctly but could very easily be wrong), but what it solves is even less of a rounding number.

Said in a different way to do all financial transactions on the blockchain would use a lot more energy then it currently does.

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by errantmind on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:48AM (#29262709)
BTC does not require every single transaction to be processed on-chain in the way that you describe. Please refer to the Lightning Network.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by kmonsen on Thursday November 18, 2021 @03:18AM (#29263292)
But then you are moving the goal posts, blockchain is not really needed for lighting.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by throwaway248329 on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:27AM (#29262974)
That's not how it works, energy usage does not scale with the number of transactions.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by kmonsen on Thursday November 18, 2021 @03:13AM (#29263261)
Uh, why not?
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by hectormalot on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:44AM (#29262692)
Sorry, but 0.1% of global energy consumption still adds up to a lot of coal power plants.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by errantmind on Thursday November 18, 2021 @01:50AM (#29262720)
This appears to be a semantic deflection. Are you arguing that less than 0.1% of the world's energy consumption equates to a "massive environmental impact"?
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by Ma8ee on Thursday November 18, 2021 @04:05AM (#29263550)
The reason why the argument that it is only using 0.1% of the worlds energy consumption so it doesn't matter is a stupid argument is because it can be used about absolutely everything. This particular coal plant only emits a 0.01% of all greenhouse gas emissions, so it doesn't matter. That is true about that coal plant too, and that one. So just leave them all because no single coal plant matters in the whole.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by hectormalot on Thursday November 18, 2021 @02:37AM (#29263026)
If we want to put it this way, yes.

140TWh out of 170000TWh is about 0.8%. relative impact is bigger than 0.08%. Coal is 36% of the power mix. Under the assumption that most bitcoin mining happens connected to the grid (seems reasonable) and that these grids contain coal powerplants (also reasonable with the exception of Iceland), that 0.08% translates to 0.22% of global coal based emissions. On a global scale, being responsible for 1/500th is a lot (for me at least)

the numbers are more relatable when looking at absolute impact. Assuming a average coal power plant of 600MW (you can find bigger, but this is a representative plant near me[1]). That’s 5TWh/yr per plant. Bitcoin then represents 28 of such coal powerplants running at 100% capacity 24/7. That - to me - seems like a massive amount of CO2 for a niche application.

And if I read your source correctly, that’s just bitcoin

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amercentrale

Coal is about 36%

Re:10 years of whatever this has been by chaxor on Thursday November 18, 2021 @03:19AM (#29263296)
Btc still uses far less energy than the banking industry. The relevant comparisons are important to consider.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by oblio on Thursday November 18, 2021 @06:12AM (#29264199)
The banking industry does 10000 times more things for billions more people.
Re:10 years of whatever this has been by tamaharbor on Thursday November 18, 2021 @07:04AM (#29264497)
I wonder how much energy is consumed via social networking on Facebook, Twitter, HN, etc?