News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by bsedlm on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:04AM (#29160526)
because NFTs are built in (and for) digital artifacts. In the digital world the actual "artifact" (the object of art) is digital. NFTs 'solve' this problem by not caring about the fact that the artwork can (and will) be freely copied with no cost.

Maybe it is better to think about NFTs as public official (blockchain-backed) certificates of donation (or support) rather than assets.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by Jensson on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:12AM (#29160609)
There is nothing official about NFTs, and since they can be traded they aren't a donation log either. When I watch a youtube video they often display donors, that is official. If the artist himself posts about donors, then that is official. If the artist posts "these NFTs are official", then why couldn't the artist just post "these people donated" instead? It is the same thing, it is the same level of authority, the NFT itself doesn't make anything more valid or official or less likely to get corrupted or forgotten.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by bhaak on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:23AM (#29160743)
That's not machine readable and it needs action from the original artist.

NFT can be exchanged without the original artist doing anything and the artist can still get a provision from that.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by Jensson on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:34AM (#29160881)
Why would you trade support for an artist? Do you really think that people want to trade support for an artist? Like "I don't really want to get credit for this artist any longer, so now I sell it for profit!"? How does that make sense? And then the next guy who paid me for it, why didn't he just support the artist directly instead of giving me a cut? It is all just stupid.

> That's not machine readable and it needs action from the original artist.

That is the whole point, I donate to the artist and the artist shows me gratitude by performing an action for me, like including my name in his videos!

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by bhaak on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:51AM (#29161056)
People buy funny hats to use them in games. Currently, the scope of NFTs is quite similar to that. That doesn't mean that we won't see better uses of them in the future.

> That is the whole point, I donate to the artist and the artist shows me gratitude by performing an action for me, like including my name in his videos!

If that's what you want that's fine. But there are artists that don't do videos and some people want other kinds of rewards.

Also imagine if e.g. Twitter would implement support for profile pics with NFTs. Then as an owner of a NFT you'd have something unique to display.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by mch82 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:19AM (#29162043)
Does an NFT provide a mechanism for enforcement of ownership? If not, how is it better than copyright law? Under copyright law, I immediately own a work of art I create (in your example, a Twitter profile pic I created) and have the right to decide who can display copies of my art. The issue isn’t proving ownership, the issue is copyright enforcement (I may not be able to afford the cost of defending my copyright claim in court).
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by bhaak on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:23PM (#29169471)
NFTs don't solve anything on the copyright enforcement level. How could they? Your printer doesn't enforce copyright either when you print a document or an image you aren't allowed to print.

Although I don't think there is any problem in doing a NFT like an ebook or a movie that is encrypted and the decryption key would be transferred to the wallet of the buyer when you sell or resell the NFT.

But that's not how NFTs are used currently. Right now it's just "I bought this" (with not many rights being actually bought).

What NFTs allow are open markets for these NFTs. Imagine the million dollar homepage redone with NFTs. Every pixel would be a single NFT. The homepage could automatically be generated from the public data and more importantly, the buyers of the pixels could try to buy more pixels on the open market after all pixels have been sold without the original artist/seller being involved.

Or gaming assets. DLCs today can only be bought from the game developer. There's no secondary market (or at least not a legal one). Why? Because the game developer doesn't get a cut from resold DLCs. With NFTs this could change. The game developer gets a cut on every resell and even more important, you wouldn't be confined to the game developers shop system but could sell the DLCs on any shop that is compatible with the NFT standards.

This opens up new market opportunities.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by iamacyborg on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:45AM (#29160987)
> It is all just stupid.

Right. If you want to support an artist, you can just commision to produce a new original piece.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by kibwen on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:50AM (#29161052)
> NFT can be exchanged without the original artist doing anything and the artist can still get a provision from that.

Which only goes to prove that NFTs don't provide ownership. The doctrine of first sale limits the power of IP by giving consumers ownership. This mechanism eliminates the doctrine of first sale, giving even more power to IP holders and destroying the concept of ownership.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by brutusborn on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:11AM (#29160592)
If the NFTs don't care that the artwork can be copied, what is their use case? If I own the NFT for a digital file that other people have copies of, what do I actually use the NFT for?

The only thing I can think is proof of authorship, but private key cryptograph already solves that.

Edit: after reading some other replies I've come to the conclusion that NFTs provide a way to prove who put a file on the blockchain first. Thus the use case is trustless transfer of the ownership of this fact of "being first", which is where the scarcity of the NFT comes from and thus the value.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by zrail on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:23AM (#29160747)
The purpose of NFTs is to extract as much money out of people willing to trade them as possible before the whole thing falls apart. The end.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by wccrawford on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:40AM (#29161570)
Except that, so far as I know, there's nothing stopping someone else from putting the exact same data in another block in the chain, and claiming that is "first" instead. And unless you already know the first copy exists, there's no way to find it via the blockchain itself, and so no way to prove "first" without already knowing it's the first.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by brutusborn on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @10:17AM (#29175487)
I only have a fairly basic understanding of crypto, so this may be a very naive view, but I thought it was the same as bitcoin, whereby the whole network eventually comes to a consensus on the order of transactions / blocks on the chain?
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by wccrawford on Thursday November 11, 2021 @06:35AM (#29186875)
Sure, but if I post data to the blockchain (perhaps a URL to an XKCD comic) and someone else posts that exact same data another time, how would we even know each other posted it? At some point, it's practically impossible to search the entire block chain.

Now suppose each of use are selling the 'first' post of that data. How does a buyer know that we're really the first?

And so I'm saying that even claiming 'first' is practically impossible via blockchain. Even if someone knew about both of the instances above and could arbitrate between them, there might be a third, older instance yet.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by brutusborn on Sunday November 21, 2021 @11:06AM (#29297202)
Why is it impossible to search the block chain? Isn't this how bitcoin works: to accept a transaction, all transactions with the relevant accounts must be searched and summed to ensure there are enough funds?
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by moron4hire on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:52AM (#29161070)
My understanding is that people don't even mint whole files due to the cost of minting scaling with the size of the data, so they are minting links to the files, which you then have to hope always point to that file.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by twox2 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:56AM (#29161752)
There are plenty of projects that store either the art or verifiable metadata directly on chain.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by moron4hire on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:10AM (#29161929)
This not being a universal property of NFTs undermines the entire system.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by twox2 on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:17AM (#29162006)
To some extent I can capitulate on that, but you are right in that this system does not solve for "caveat emptor".
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by web2sucks on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:24AM (#29161379)
In-game items are a great use for NFTs because they provide ownership outside the game and can traded on 3rd party markets. For example, i purchased a plot of land on cryptovoxels. Each individual plot of land is linked to a unique NFT. When i log into the game with my ethereum account (web3), then i gain build access to the plots of land that i own the NFTs for.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by acdha on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:04AM (#29161840)
How is that different from paying for it with a microtransaction? You still have no rights outside of what the developer implements[1] and when they shut down, your token’s value rapidly approaches zero.

1. For example, say they sell to one of the big companies and the new boss with an MBA in gamer milking decides that virtual land needs annual property taxes, utilities, and improvements purchased from the company store or it’ll be reclaimed or simply that they’re creating new, more desirable terrain which will devalue yours. They control the code and servers, so your options are paying, giving up, or trying to convince other players to build, operate, and adopt a clone. The blockchain’s heavy cost doesn’t appear to be providing anything significant.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by giantrobot on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:04AM (#29161850)
In a virtual world why the shit are you paying for a "plot of land"? It's not real land. There's not a finite amount. It's not made out of only the finest free range grass fed bits.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by brokenmachine on Wednesday November 10, 2021 @12:51AM (#29171522)
A fool and his digital property are soon parted.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by nsxwolf on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @09:03AM (#29161837)
What do you own when the game is shut down?
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by bsedlm on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:17AM (#29160677)
I suppose their "utility" is that they can be traded.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by web2sucks on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @08:25AM (#29161389)
And they can be used as collateral in defi smart contracts.
Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by xondono on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:13AM (#29160617)
Except they really don’t. The tokens are blockchain-backed, the digital artifact itself isn’t.

To be what you define, I should not be able to copy-paste the digital artifact and then create a second token. The token should, in some way, behave like a hash, where the blockchain should complain that this digital asset has been accounted for already.

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by bsedlm on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @07:16AM (#29160667)
> Except they really don’t.

now that I've thought about it for a bit longer, I think you're right.

> I should not be able to copy-paste the digital artifact

no, because then the NFT would be exactly the same as the digital artifact, and they're not. that's the point I'm trying to make.

I suppose they fact that NFTs can be traded is what's so weird about them (and why my own argument fails).

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by xondono on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @12:59PM (#29164995)
> no, because then the NFT would be exactly the same as the digital artifact

I should not be able to copy-paste the digital artifact and then create a second token.

You should be able to copy the digital asset, but the second part (creating a new token) should fail. Otherwise what’s the point?

Re:NFT's aren't the answer to the problems of digital art by Dagonfly on Tuesday November 09, 2021 @10:20AM (#29162858)
Technically even the token isn't directly blockchain-backed. ERC-721 (the base standard) only requires a URI to a metadata file. That file may contain a link to the asset (JPG or whatever). So there are 2 indirections. Hopefully both are IPFS addresses.

Of course, there are other NFT implementations that store metadata directly in the smart contract, but that requires a lot more gas.