> They don't. Sending a Police Riot control unit against a group of people throwing stones and molotovs does not qualify as being terrorized.

But sending an army unit with an order "break the village" which results in shock grenades being dropped into a cradle with the baby inside does qualify them as being terrorized.

Note: I'm Israeli and was working with people who got those orders and carried them out during their service.

Thank you for your courage to say that.

It is also funny how often people forget why the riots start in the first place. So often it seems to be that the riots are precipitated by egregious abuse by settlers/army/police/Israeli policy. Abuse the people long enough and they will rage.

There was a case couple of years ago near Salfit (Palestinian town near the end of the road 5). First, someone "shot at security vehicle". I remember telling my wife after reading the news: "See what happens next". Of course, the barged into Salfit to "retrieve video recordings from CCTV cameras" shooting some mid-aged man in front of his family. It was already clear, what will happen next. In couple of days 19 y.o. from Salfit approached IDF soldiers on nearby intersection, pulled the knife, stabbed one of the soldiers (19 y.o. musician from Beer Sheva), took his rifle, shot some more soldiers, then grabbed a car, shot some more settlers and escaped. He was later found and executed on the spot by army forces. Two teenagers dead only because prime minister needed some escalation to distract population from the trial.

Did they find the original shooter, who "attacked" security vehicle?

>It was already clear, what will happen next.

Is it? The attempted murder of innocent people? Is that the sort of behaviour that should be accepted and tolerated? because it sounds like you are saying that.

It shouldn't be accepted and tolerated, but it's disingenuous to discuss it without mentioning the reasons why it happened in the first place.

I think he's saying the turn of events is tragically predictable, and we SHOULDN'T accept or tolerate it. That was my reading, anyway.

> The attempted murder of innocent people?

In your opinion, what should a teenager do after witnessing extrajudicial execution of his relative by occupying army?

In your opinion, how should the IDF act do if they know that every teenager can become a potential mass murderer? Your words, not mine. Bear in mind that soldiers are people and they can feel emotions such as fear and anger over dead comrades. Of course unjustified violence is not right, but you can't exactly expect them to engage in community relationships. They also can't ignore the status quo which involves terrorists acting with impunity like in the intafadas.

> how should the IDF act do

Solution is simple: end the occupation.

> which involves terrorists

Your terrorists are someone else's freedom fighters.

> Solution is simple: end the occupation.

That is not an answer, might as well have just written "Free Palestine!"

I would be interested in hearing your real solution, instead of just repeating a slogan. Nobody has been able to figure it out for decades.

This depends on what is the desired outcome. Currently our real goals are defined by Lebensraum ideology. Of course, ending the occupation is not helping here.

The moment we ditch colonial dreams and ideas of racial superiority (as a base for Zionism), there are two possible solutions: pull out settlements, pull out army or annex all the territories, give citizenship to all residents. In both cases, , start preparation for return of refugees and work out compensation (like Germany after WW2).

I dont think you are israeli,not that I dont agree with your points, but because I dont think you are talking like one. I think you are from Russia or an arab larping as an israeli

Where to should I send my proof of citizenship and results of testing for STDs?

1) You are making an hypothetical based on orders. Which amount to nothing.

2) Searching google for "shock grenades on a girl israel" will show you first a Jewish Ultra-Orthodox girl getting hit around a corona protest last year:

https://twitter.com/almogbenzikri/status/1251004227956150273

So this is a police brutality issue, not a Palestine issue.

3) Based on your previous comments- "Hamas is an ally of Israel in Gaza" I'm thinking you are just out of the loop.

> 1) You are making an hypothetical based on orders. Which amount to nothing.

No, my colleague actually spent time in jail for military crimes.

> 2) Searching google for

You get what you search for.

> you are just out of the loop

Or, what is more probable, you are just pushing Hasbara.

You say your Israeli.. But then you use the phrase"

"you are just pushing Hasbara."

I'm Israeli, and I have never met an Israeli who would say that phrase, Especially in english, using the hebrew word like that. Something doesn't add up.. Are you russian or israeli arab or something? You had work partners in magav and they told you they put a stun grenade in a baby stroller? This seems pretty weird..

Hasbara Hasbara. When you're pushing Palestinian narrative you're progressive. When you're pushing zionist narrative you're an evil Jew Hasbara troll.

Yeah, except the hasbara efforts are real and well documented.

Pretty disingenuous for you to try and present OP in such a way.

Israeli here. I don’t want to get into an argument here about the six NGOs, Israel and NSO group. I personally don’t have enough information to make an informed decision on it.

There is one thing I want to clarify though. Hasbara is Hebrew for “explaining” - so when Israelis or any Hebrew speaker say hasbara it literally means “explaining” their point of view. Now more often or not, Israelis and Hebrew speakers actually complain that “our governments Hasbara/explanation was garbage” or “wow, we did a really poor job explaining ourselves there”.

When you put it into that context, you need to understand from an Israeli/Hebrew speaker point of view “hasbara” is not a bad thing at all - it’s a necessity regardless of if you are pro or anti Israel.

Unfortunately people who don’t understand Hebrew have turned a common Hebrew term into a derogatory attack against any Israeli or pro Israeli individual and this extremely problematic for so many reasons I won’t get into now.

Regardless, every time you accuse someone of “hasbara” you are actually just accusing them of explaining themselves or their point of view and since it is everyone’s right to be allowed to explain their point of view - you really aren’t accusing them of anything bad at all.

Hasbara refers to simply explaining the same way that Islam refers to mere submission. When people are talking about Hasbara with an uppercase H they are referring to government PR programs - ie, propaganda.

It's yet another tool in the "destroy Israel" toolbox; prevent Zionists from speaking up or defending themselves. If someone says anything remotely positive about Israel (even if it's real) it's "Hasbara", some kind of black magic. Already it's increasingly difficult to identify as pro Israel in American colleges, slowly but surely it's happening.

Every country in the world uses diplomacy and public relations to create a better strategic reality for itself, especially in times of conflict. Israel is no different than the U.S or Australia or the Palestinian Authority for that matter. It's pretty disingenuous of you to call it "Hasbara" when Israel does it as if it's some kind of Israeli phenomena.

Hasbara is what the Israelis call it… what would be a more sincere way for me to refer to it?

Public relations? Diplomacy? Even propaganda if you want to be negative towards Israel? Why would you use the Hebrew word for it, do you use the Hebrew word for other things as well? It's not a unique thing to Israel that's exactly my point.

You are missing the point, people don’t use it because it’s the Hebrew word. Hasbara is a crucial part of Israeli strategy to expand its borders and maintain its dominance of the Palestinian people. Hasbara is all about (1) obfuscating the settler-colonial nature of Israel and (2) white-washing Israeli military war crimes in Gaza and occupied territories. It’s telling that the achievement which launched the political career of the current prime-minister was astroturfing Wikipedia to promote Zionism and Israel. This stuff is important to Israel it’s not just propaganda to promote is hasbara to enable.

The nature of hasbara has features which warrant distinguishing it from propaganda. For example it seemingly exclusively relies on astroturfing. That’s useful to know that there are organizations giving students fellowships [1] to promote these efforts. Another feature is in the objective. Unlike generic propaganda, the objective isn’t to promote domestic nationalism, counter competing ideologies, or to demotivate foreign adversaries. The objective is obfuscating the settler colonial nature of Israel and white-washing Israeli military war crimes.

To me, this warrants calling these efforts by what the Israelis call it.

1. https://hasbarafellowships.org/

Yeah ok man ...was nice talking to you.

Given your apparent intended meaning, “propaganda” seems most appropriate.

Ever wondered why those people are protesting? If you only follow the history of the region you’d quickly realize that Israel did (and does) terrorize their neighbors who in turn retaliated and the vicious cycle of vendettas on eachother continues to this day. What is realy cool about Israel is that they’re a democratic country and a large part of their country denounces all this violence, there is a way forward towards peace. But before that look closely at a map, Israel has sistematically divided and isolated most Palestinian land in an obvious divide and empera plan.

1) Molotov != Protest

2)

> follow the history of the region

> terrorize their neighbors

Counter example:

2005: Israel unilateral dismantling of the 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip

2007: Hamas takeover of Gaza

2007: Gaza Blockade

I do not think we see the history of the region in the same way.

> 2007: Hamas takeover of Gaza

As you mention Hamas, it gives me the opportunity to point out that Israel bankrolled Hamas founder Sheikh Yassin even prior to the founding of Hamas. This was admitted by former military governor of Gaza Yitzhak Segev and other Israeli government and military officials. Israel wanted to undermine secular political Palestinians and empower Islamist political Palestinians. Once successful, they bemoan that the Islamists they funded and worked to empower, have come to power.

Incidentally, the EU funded NGOs which Israel are spying on here are mostly secular (and even the militant groups which Israel is claiming the NGOs are affiliated with are secular as well).

> Israel bankrolled Hamas founder Sheikh Yassin even prior to the founding of Hamas

Yes, prior to the founding of Hamas, Israel was fighting secular terrorist groups and gave support to other (less violent) Palestinian factions in hope that those other factions could gain control and bring peace. That backfired miserably. But it wasn't some sort of nefarious conspiracy like you are alleging.

Well Israel ended up killing Sheikh Yassin so I don't know about that theory - maybe we can agree Israel did conflicting things? Also - are you saying the Palestinians have zero responsibility for Hamas?

Not talking about Gaza, look closely at the whole map and how all palestinian territory is fractured, divided and isolated from one another. One can think its a security measure but it ceases to be one when they move in their own settlers in.

Second, molotov and rocks is protest, not a peaceful one but it still is. You have to understand these people have nothing else to lose, they’ve been beaten down with far more uneven military power.

I was listening to a podcast in which former Israeli soldiers were talking about how they were raiding palestinian houses at night and making arrests. They themselves thought it was wrong. How do you expect a generation that grows like that to behave, throw roses at the Israeli border?

Molotov and rocks may be both protests and murder attempts.

Hamas has also initiated unilateral ceasefires (called "tadiyah") that Israel has broken.

The actual timeline is that in 2006, Hamas won the elections (hence the "takeover") despite Israel prohibiting them from campaigning and arresting their candidates.

Upon their election, Israel put them under sanction, prohibited them from traveling between the two parts of Palestine they had been elected to run, withheld governmental money owed to the PA, and sponsored a coup against their government (which pushed them out of the West Bank, hence Hamas' exclusive control of Gaza).

AFAIK, elections have not been permitted in the PA since then.

> 2005: Israel unilateral dismantling of the 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip

If you credit Israel for dismantling the settlements, I think it would make sense to also credit Israel for having built them. Selecting events can make any side seem like the good guys.

This is not meant as a pro-someone or anti-someone argument. You can use the same technique to argue for or against either side.

> Molotov != Protest

Molotov is not only a protest, it is a peaceful protest without weapon which is a human right.

> Hamas takeover of Gaza

You do know, that Hamas is an ally of Israel in Gaza, don't you?

> You do know, that Hamas is an ally of Israel in Gaza

Now how do you argue with someone who has the very basics of the conflict wrong.

You ask first if this someone understands the very basics correctly.

That isn't all true. Egypt was perhaps the Israel's most bitter enemy, yet they made peace. They have made peace with Jordan, SA and many others. Most of the nasty vendettas were removed from the cycle and do not continue today. Their worst enemy now is Iran who they actually got on with until about 35 years ago when they called Israel the Little satan. Above all i want you to think for a moment what would have happened to all the Jews living in Israel had they lost the first war of independence.

They tried to give back Gaza and got extremely burned for that. Should they have listened to Egypt how to deal with the people in Gaza? I don't think so.

> They don't. Sending a Police Riot control unit against a group of people throwing stones and molotovs does not qualify as being terrorized.

Is it a police operation if it is conducted in occupied foreign territory or would that count as military action?

> They are, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and many more... not some and not maybe.

Is every Palestinian who voted for Hamas in the last elections permitted in Palestine in 2006 a terrorist as well?

> Is every Palestinian who voted .. a terrorist as well?

No. But at the same time, If Hamas hides military equipment in a news building where other civilians work, then Hamas is committing a war crime.

And Israel has the right to attack this building while taking every action to minimize civilians bystanders casualties. As they did by giving 1hr notice.

Israel routinely mixes civilian and military operations, particularly in Mossad, and uses civilians as cover for their work.

Israel engages in illegal extrajudicial assassinations of civilians, and their occupation of Palestine is a war crime under the geneva convention.

No evidence has been presented that Hamas was actually hiding military equipment in this news building.

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/06/israel-says-ham...

> and their occupation of Palestine is a war crime under the geneva convention

This is not true. Military occupation by itself is allowed, but puts certain restrictions on the occupying power. For example, it's forbidden to transfer own population into the occupied territory, which Israel does.

I wasn't saying that occupation in general is a war crime, I am saying that the Israeli occupation as it manifests itself right now (ie. with settlements) is.

> And Israel has the right

This kind of hides the fact, that a responsibility for war crimes is personal. Not everyone will be as lucky as Ariel Sharon who died before he was tried.