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Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by daveguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @07:58PM (#29033615)
Well, to be fair. Your drug use can't put me in the ICU.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by i_am_proteus on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:07PM (#29033681)
Not directly, but addicted people sometimes turn to violent crime to raise funds, and that violent crime certainly can put you in the ICU.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by ehnto on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:17PM (#29034136)
Meth is definitely one of the drugs that becomes a public nuisance, since people do become erratic and violent while using. Meth users are the only people that worry me when walking through our city since it can make people who are already unstable become unpredictably violent. I wonder if other drugs were legal would people still do meth?
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by chucksta on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:41PM (#29034260)
Meth was legal until the 70s, society functioned. The current problem is another side effect of the war on drugs

https://www.history.com/topics/crime/history-of-meth

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by AlotOfReading on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:36PM (#29034563)
According to period newspapers, it very much was a problem almost immediately after public introduction in the late 40s and early 50s. Here's an example from Australia, which banned it by 1955:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71874426?searchTe...

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by lend000 on Friday October 29, 2021 @12:19AM (#29035135)
Reading today's newspapers, you'd think Southern California just survived the apocalypse after the half inch of rain last weekend.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by xyzzyz on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:29PM (#29034521)
This is very much false, and completely contrary to the actual history. War on drugs only happened because of greatly increased social dysfunction due to drugs, not the other way around. It enjoyed wide social support at the time it was started, precisely because people saw how damaging the drugs are to their communities. The idea that drug-related social dysfunction is an effect of war on drugs is yet another of those "wet streets cause rain" ideas.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by cleansingfire on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:33PM (#29034880)
No. The war on drugs was an acknowledged political act to disenfranchise black people and the anti (Vietnam) war movement. Lopez, German (March 22, 2016). "Nixon official: real reason for the drug war was to criminalize black people and hippies". Vox. Archived from the original on May 30, 2017. Retrieved June 13, 2017.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by xyzzyz on Friday October 29, 2021 @12:16AM (#29035119)
Which is why when the War on Drugs started, the Congressional Black Caucus met with Nixon to urge him to stop it.

…no, they didnt, in fact they urged him to do the opposite: to ramp it up as fast as possible, precisely to stop the damage the drugs were causing to black communities.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/16/212620886...

The linked material came out on NPR in 2013, before it was decided that the history needs to be revised. I recommend taking a look at it before it is also revised, to remove all references to what had actually happened, to how black leaders were main force behind the War on Drugs.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by chucksta on Friday October 29, 2021 @07:26PM (#29044623)
Did you finish reading it? >The Rev. Herbert Daughtry, a longtime pastor in New York, once was addicted to heroin and served time. He's convinced that black leaders who embraced the drug war did serious harm to the community, but says a lot of African-Americans were desperate for ways to make their neighborhoods safe again. "If you're the victim, then you don't want to hear anything about treatment, just, 'Get this guy off the street.' "

Makes sense to me

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by xyzzyz on Friday October 29, 2021 @09:14PM (#29045177)
Yes, I did. The quote you gave supports what I said: that the black leaders pushed for War on Drugs, precisely to counteract the destructive effects of drugs on their communities. Rev. Herbert Daughtry might believe today that they were wrong to do so, and he might well be correct. This is not what I’m arguing against. I’m arguing against a blatant falsehood, that War on Drugs was purely a mean to disenfranchise black Americans, and that social decay related to drug use was an effect, not a cause of the War on Drugs. These claims are very much false, and this is obvious to anyone who lived through these times, or who spends even minimal amount of effort to look at primary sources.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by chucksta on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @04:02PM (#29086665)
Ah I misunderstood your point, I agree with you
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by chucksta on Friday October 29, 2021 @07:22PM (#29044607)
How do you explain this quote then, surely the war would cause a decrease no? Odd usage spiked decades _after_ they banned it

>Use of crystal meth in the United States exploded in the early 1990s. Between 1994 and 2004, methamphetamine use rose from just under two percent of the U.S. adult population to approximately five percent.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by ehnto on Friday October 29, 2021 @03:35AM (#29036176)
Society functions while people have access to guns too, yet there are still consequences to that choice. I am pro legalization of most drugs, but meth does give me pause. No one smoking a joint or tripped out on opioids has ever attacked me while screaming at ghosts in the street, I don't know enough about the role of meth in those kinds of instabilities but anecdotally meth, and alcohol too, sure seem to cause a whole lot of trouble in my city.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by xyzzyz on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:25PM (#29034173)
Other drugs already are legal. Alcohol is legal, and marijuana is effectively legal in Seattle, where people apparently do a lot of meth.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by ehnto on Friday October 29, 2021 @03:30AM (#29036151)
While true neither of those drugs would replace meth. Alcohol probably causes more social misconduct than meth anyway.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by voakbasda on Friday October 29, 2021 @10:46AM (#29039097)
Possibly because it is legal.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by Broken_Hippo on Friday October 29, 2021 @01:20AM (#29035414)
Angry people can turn violent and put you in the ICU, too. To be fair, the list of things that can put you in the ICU is very very long, and many of us avoid it for the majority of our lives.

Like angry people, the vast majority of folks don't turn to violent crime, especially if other avenues exist. Society can provide this if necessary and we already have laws concerning violent crime that we can use.

I'll note that most of us pass addicted people every day when we leave the house. Most of them, you simply won't know they are addicted and if you are normal, you'll probably assume a person or two is addicted, yet they are not.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by chucksta on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:39PM (#29034243)
You can apply that logic to almost anything people use as a vice or get physically/psychologically addicted to
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by rsj_hn on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:05PM (#29033663)
People trying to steal to get drugs could. People high on drugs certainly could. A lot of Breaking and Entering, for example, is to obtain money to feed a drug habit. For the person doing the stealing, all they care about is the cost of the drug, so plans to regulate and tax meth, well, don't necessarily improve that situation.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by kragen on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:41PM (#29033930)
But we aren't talking about plans to regulate meth; it's already very heavily regulated. We're talking about plans to partly deregulate meth, which we can expect to significantly reduce the cost of the drug, from the US$50 or more per gram described in this article down to US$1 per gram or less like other synthetic drugs with similarly simple synthesis routes. The US$50 a gram isn't the cost of operating the reactors or measuring the purity of the result; it's the cost of hiring an army of foot soldiers to keep drug addicts or the police from stealing the stuff, because you can't trust the police, because it's illegal.

Yeah, people high on meth do crimes. But at least if the stuff is legal they won't do crimes to buy meth.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by rsj_hn on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:10PM (#29034407)
So the way it worked out with marijuana is the legal stuff is a lot more expensive than the street stuff. Maybe it would be different with meth, but I'm not sure why.

https://www.inverse.com/article/39899-recreational-weed-cali...

Basically the whole legal drug movement is targeted at non-addicts to let them pay a premium for a sanitary, legal, controlled experience. The political justifications for the movement are all about harm reduction. But the reality is that if you are an apothecary in SF, you don't really want junkies hanging out in your lobby, for the same reason that communities don't want junkies in their streets. Mental problems, theft, possible violence, behavioral issues -- it would chase away paying customers, and impose security and liability costs on them.

Those unwilling to pay for that more civilized experience go to the street. One important thing to remember is that legalization did not destroy the illegal market. They are different markets, although there is certainly overlap.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/us/marijuana-california-l...

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by Scoundreller on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:51PM (#29034967)
> Based on a number of California stores they investigated, the cost for an eighth will now range from around $50 to $65.

> told The New York Times in September that the black market price for an eighth of an ounce is around $20.

Just to share some Canadian numbers, in Ontario, CAD$3.57/gram at the low end through the government store. Of course you could purchase $10/gram or $15/gram if you wanted.

On the black market (clearnet) side, you're looking at around CAD$250 for 2 ounces, or CAD$4.45/g for some mix and match specials. I suspect you can sometimes find $99 ounces which is still $3.53/gram.

Can't really speak to quality of course. Not sure why California black market is going for $5.71/gram

The biggest difference between the black market and regulated market in Canada is the potency of edibles, or so I hear. Government wants to make sure nobody can get high if they mistakenly eat a box thinking its candy, which is kinda a problem if you want to get high.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by rsj_hn on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:58PM (#29035001)
I didn't know this about Canada -- it's interesting.

It's not clear to me how the black market should go for more if you can just go into a legal place and buy there. What am I missing? Perhaps you need a prescription or something, and people can't get that, so they pay a premium on the black market? Or maybe the legal market limits how much you can buy? Something has to support a higher black market price, since after all it is more legal risk for the participants, and possibly things like risk of buying something unknown.

Or maybe the black market operates in places where there is no legal vendor and so can just charge more? Or they offer home delivery?

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by Scoundreller on Friday October 29, 2021 @12:13AM (#29035105)
Massive over-investment in grow facilities on the regulated side. Think dotcom on IPOs starting ~5 years ago promising massive profits and owning the market.

Government website in Ontario does free delivery. Same day in bigger areas for $8. https://ocs.ca/blogs/article/ocs-same-day-and-express-delive...

Retail shops usually charge more than government website. We're flooded with those too.

Licensed Producers are literally sitting on tons of unsold inventory that will likely never sell and never export, and now racing to the bottom on price to get some revenue.

There will be a shakeout.

Because of the above inventory problems, it's possible what you're buying from the legal market has been sitting on a shelf for a while, but under controlled atmosphere, that's not the end of the world. Some places also gamma irradiate their product, which some people have an issue with, but it does keep down microbiological risk and extend shelf life.

Each province has different pricing, so its possible some are just charging a lot more and the black market websites sell for the same price everywhere.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by KingMachiavelli on Friday October 29, 2021 @02:05AM (#29035673)
This is a very CA specific problem cause by the fact that legalization is done at the state level and not federal.

Illegal CA cannabis production supplied a huge fraction of total US demand.

Legalization worked in that it is now harder to smuggle illegal cannabis to surrounding states legalizing (and there might be a stronger push to actually find and catch smugglers now).

Also in a high tax state such as CA a lot of 'black market' prices might be skewed by individual growers selling to their immediate friends, etc. This would not translate to other drugs because they don't grow on uh weeds.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by LegitShady on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:51PM (#29034965)
In Canada at least in two provinces I've been to recently the price of mj has approximately neared par with the black market, more or less. You can still find some thats more expensive but you can also find some that isn't. The catch is that you have to buy an oz at a time to get that price - if you buy smaller amounts you will probably pay more than the black market.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by Broken_Hippo on Friday October 29, 2021 @01:24AM (#29035437)
if you buy smaller amounts you will probably pay more than the black market.

You pay more in the black market if you buy smaller amounts too - if your dealer will sell smaller amounts, that is.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by daveguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:16PM (#29033773)
Yes. That requires another specific decision to commit a crime. Respiratory viral infection requires no additional decision on part of the viral vector.

I agree there shouldn't be a blanket decriminalization of drug use because it does alter judgement/motivation and make a theft or even violent crime more likely.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by howlin on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:36PM (#29033897)
Drugs destroy your ability to make good decisions. They are essentially hot wiring the brain's reward circuits which directly feed back into the brain's decision making processes. Most obviously, it's almost never the case that addicts consciously choose to become addicted.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by Broken_Hippo on Friday October 29, 2021 @01:31AM (#29035488)
"Drugs destroy your ability to make good decisions. They are essentially hot wiring the brain's reward circuits which directly feed back into the brain's decision making processes."

This reeks or propaganda based on a little bit of truth. Sure, being addicted to something warps your brain. It doesn't have to be drugs to do this, though. Gambling addiction is a menace for a subset of population too.

Sure, actually being on drugs will affect the way you think for a short time until it wears off. Some drugs might change your perspective on life (LSD and MDMA are common here).

But seriously: It also isn't as bad as you say.

Caffeine and nicotine aren't going to destroy your ability to make good decisions. Drinking moderately won't do that. You probably have worked with folks that were daily pot smokers your whole life without knowing. Some of them were alcoholics (admittedly, it'll warp some things, but a functional alcoholic tends to make good decisions to a point). A smaller number did heavier drugs occasionally: LSD a few times a year, cocaine 2-4 times a year.

And they've pretty much all retained the ability to make good decisions, even if they've made some you don't agree with.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by s5300 on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:16PM (#29034437)
Pretty sure that Erdos said that Dexedrine/variants of amphetamine made him want to do math.

Is wanting to do math a not good decision? Potentially, I guess.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by rsj_hn on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:40PM (#29034591)
If you are Erdos, it is a good decision.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by jkhdigital on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:15PM (#29034121)
Does anyone 100% consciously choose anything? If you make a decision after drinking a strong cup of coffee, how much of that decision came from the caffeine, and how much came from your “consciousness”?

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you—addiction is a disease of forces and circumstances, for sure—but the level of “free will” present in any choice (or sequence of choices) is a certainly not amenable to a binary classification.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by howlin on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:07PM (#29034392)
Yes, the degree "free will"/willpower factors into a decision is much more of a spectrum than a binary. I'm just pointing out that drug addiction shifts your decisions away from the free will end of the spectrum.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by LocalH on Friday October 29, 2021 @08:52AM (#29037795)
"Drug addiction" is not a singular problem with a singular solution. Every drug has unique effects, even between different people (two people take the same drug and don't have the same result). It does not serve public health to shoehorn everything into a square hole.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by rsj_hn on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:19PM (#29033786)
But the harm or benefit of a policy is not measured by how many specific decisions are performed, but rather by the overall effect of the policy on the community, no? So let's just talk about that rather than counting steps between A and B.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by daveguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:35PM (#29033893)
The overall harm or benefit to the community is certainly related to how many and likely those bad decisions are that result in a specific harm/benefit.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by chucksta on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:55PM (#29034326)
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by daveguy on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:03PM (#29034725)
Well yeah. I'm all for locking up drunk drivers, offering rehab and then permanently revoking their drivers licenses if they do it again. That goes to the second decision to adversely affect others.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by rsj_hn on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:43PM (#29033941)
If true, then you should be able to make that case directly, no?
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by dillondoyle on Friday October 29, 2021 @01:50AM (#29035592)
I personally am for this totally legalization but also giving it out for free. or better yet just have a blanket small minimum universal income so no one can decry that we're paying for someone's addiction.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by kurthr on Thursday October 28, 2021 @08:56PM (#29034022)
Yeah, it's not about you... it's the other people you may infect and kill. Kids are mostly fine... if only they didn't have teachers or parents.
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by xyzzyz on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:18PM (#29034139)
Teachers and parents can get vaccinated themselves, no? I thought the vaccine works, doesn’t it?
Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by Broken_Hippo on Friday October 29, 2021 @01:35AM (#29035510)
Yes, it works for much of the population.

I've personally had 3 full doses, and I can't be sure of my own protection. I'm on medicine that moderately suppresses my immune system, and it is likely that I am not protected.

And I'm one of the lucky ones: Some folks simply can't be vaccinated or simply won't get any protection.

And this isn't even getting into the fact that the folks not getting vaccinated means there are more chances for the virus to change in ways that make the vaccine worthless.

Me - and others - depend on everyone that can get vaccinated to, well, get the freaking vaccine. Not getting the vaccine is putting others at risk. And this is with vaccines working as designed.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by mjevans on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:41PM (#29034261)
The Alpha variant of COVID-19 was strongly suppressed by the vaccines that were approved in the US, and also the others globally.

Since around early Summer Delta has been the dominant variant, which is extremely more transmissible.

Even if vaccinated, Delta still retains effective transmutability, though (maybe?) to a reduced degree even for fully vaccinated individuals.

Since we still don't have sufficient tests to do blanket systematic tests of the entire population on a regular basis, it's extremely difficult to find asymptomatic cases. I've never been notified of an exposure, and have not had symptoms that I could attribute to COVID, thus haven't ever been tested during the entire pandemic.

For all I know, the vaccines could be effective and I might have had an asymptomatic case from someone who's not using WA notify (Washington state's notification app system) and would never know it.

I worry about the risk of spreading the disease to those who are not yet able to be vaccinated, which will soon thankfully include ages 5+ in the US; but that still doesn't allow for providing strong resistance and immune system training to the youngest children.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by xyzzyz on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:07PM (#29034384)
> Even if vaccinated, Delta still retains effective transmutability, though (maybe?) to a reduced degree even for fully vaccinated individuals.

If vaccine works to protect people who are vaccinated, but does not significantly reduce transmissibility, why force it on people who don't care about being protected? Do they not have a right to make their own choices when it comes to their own bodies? If not, why do we want to give people right to choose taking drugs, given their highly detrimental effects on their bodies and on their lives, in addition to high risk of overdose and death? This all seems completely incoherent to me.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by mjevans on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:08PM (#29034745)
Why, greater social goods and responsibility:

The vaccines still do seem to reduce infection among those who are exposed, and contribute to reducing (even if no longer eliminating) how contagious someone is when they are infected.

Combined with mask use while in public situations...

* Strangle out and eradicate the disease, or at least make very rare.

* Vastly decrease the load on our EMS and hospitals, which they could DIRELY use after almost 2 years of this BS and several waves of "beyond really bad" a year.

* Protect those who are not YET eligible for a vaccination, and who's parents hold views that prevent these innocents for receiving the most protection for disease possible.

* Reduction of spread, even if it doesn't eliminate the disease, will deprive it of chances to mutate which is better for everyone overall. Successful mutations will be like Delta vs Alpha, anything that we consider worse, relative to existing strains.

I would like the pandemic to END sometime, and we aren't getting there until as many as possible GET the vaccine and we finish the job of arming everyone to win the war.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by grepfru_it on Thursday October 28, 2021 @10:00PM (#29034340)
last i read kids (~7 and under) didn't have "fully developed ACE2 receptors" which lead to the spike RBD not fully binding in young children. this allowed their immune system to fight the invader and gave them very strong protection against SARS-CoV-2.

mutations could bring about a spanish-flu style pandemic in the young so i agree it's not a good time to get comfortable yet.. but i'm not sure i agree with mRNA vaccines being forced on all (especially kids) without long term study data. especially when subunit and inactivated vaccines for the S1 protein now exist

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by __blockcipher__ on Thursday October 28, 2021 @09:46PM (#29034285)
> Your drug use can't put me in the ICU.

Take this to its logical conclusion, please. It's the big bang's fault!

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by drdeca on Thursday October 28, 2021 @11:05PM (#29034734)
I think https://hyper-traditionalist.tumblr.com/ would agree, advocating against the multidimensionality and expansion from the Big Bang (and yet, would also object to being described as being for or against any position, because a position would imply dimensions.)

Return to gravitational singularity, and all that.

Re:The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's s... by daveguy on Friday October 29, 2021 @01:27AM (#29035454)
Yes, there obviously can never be any effect from any decision anyone ever makes. Naturally.