News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by soylentnewsorg on Monday October 25, 2021 @09:56PM (#28995548)
and quite false. there are many laptop xeon CPUs. while costing more than the M1 Max, they beat the pants off it.
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by defaultname on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:08PM (#28995639)
Can you name those laptop Xeon CPUs that beat the pants off the M1 Max?

[Spoiler because I don't think I'll get a response -- there are none. Even when you get into the "luggable" category of workstation that is ostensibly portable but really needs to be plugged in, there is no competition right now. The upcoming Alder Lake should significantly improve Intel's entrant in this category, and hopefully brings some real competition]

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by soylentnewsorg on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:36PM (#28996134)
Xeon W-11855M (6 cores)

Xeon W-11955M (8 cores)

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by rsynnott on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @10:54AM (#29001160)
This 16 core $2000 part from the article only marginally beat the M1 Max, so seems somewhat unlikely that those smaller Xeons would do that well: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/193753/...
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by Joeri on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @10:48AM (#29001086)
Those are slower than the 10 core m1 pro.
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by smoldesu on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:34PM (#28996123)
The upcoming Thinkpad X1 Extreme is going to give it some stiff competition. It's wielding the insurmountable RTX 3080, and it's priced very competitively.

But I'm just going to tell it to you now so we don't make the same mistake we have for the past 10 years of computer hardware discussions: specs don't matter. You could tell 90% of the people buying PCs with dGPUs about your 5nm GPU and next-gen power efficiency, but they won't care. They're buying them as gaming devices, general-purpose machines and game development laptops. I'd argue the market for Mac users and PC users has not radically shifted, just the hardware you're using. If we're here to talk smack about hardware superiority, this website would have been insufferable for the past decade, because there was quite literally a complete lack of professional dGPU Macs. Now that the tables have shifted slightly, I don't see why Mac users feel the need to crawl out of the woodwork and declare the game as changed, now that Prometheus gave them the gift of a laptop that doesn't throttle to hell.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by defaultname on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @09:21AM (#29000050)
People will still buy all sorts of computers. Lots of options will appeal to different people. Intel is finally being forced to actually complete. It's all good. My M1 Mac (not even M1 Pro/Max) is quite easily the best computer I've ever owned, but I have zero need to proselytize and simply do not care what you or anyone else use.

That doesn't change the fact that the above claim about "laptop Xeon chips" beating the pants off the M1 Max is delusional nonsense.

I have to comment on the RTX 3080 bit: I have used many PC laptops over my career, and currently have a Lenova with a fat, barnburner Nvidia dGPU. The GPU is literally never used, because the moment it engages my battery life falls to cartoonish levels (somewhere in the range of 40 minutes), the laptop becomes a space heater, and the fans turn into jet engines. This is the sort of "spec chasing" that the industry is addicted to, providing absurd, completely unreasonable solutions just so someone can boast. One of the things about Apple, quite contrary to your claim, is that they don't do that. When they provide something, it is meaningfully usable and useful 100% of the time.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by threeseed on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:22AM (#28997763)
It's using DDR4 versus DDR5 in the Mac and a fraction of the memory bandwidth so will be interesting to see its performance on heavier tasks. Also looks like it has at least half the battery life if not far less when put under heavy load.

I do love this review though:

"It is a nice laptop but extremely noisy. Even when idle the fans are on all the time."

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by smoldesu on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @08:26AM (#28999526)
Memory bandwidth is nothing for most workloads. Besides a scant few Geekbench figures, I have genuinely never encountered a workload that was bottlenecked by my ability to transfer assets to the GPU. Is 100gbps of PCIe bandwidth not enough for your needs?
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by dijit on Wednesday October 27, 2021 @12:16PM (#29015318)
That's not true if you're actually using the ram though.

I remember memory bandwidth being the bottleneck when running large(ish) datasets for game worlds. It was so much that we put a lot of pressure on google cloud because we worried they wouldn't be able to compete with bare metal (since it's not usually measured, reported and can be non-guaranteed when you have neighbours).

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by rerx on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @06:58AM (#28998759)
Which review are you quoting?
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by paulmd on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:13PM (#28995669)
xeon branded workstation laptops aren't using Icelake-SP or similar server chips, they are using Tiger Lake-S or Ice Lake-S or Skylake-S client chips.

They are what would previously have been branded as "Xeon E3" series chips - on the desktop platform they used to share a socket and be drop-in upgrades with consumer desktop chips, because they're basically the same chips with "enterprise" features like ECC turned on.

An example would be Xeon E3-1285 v3 - which is basically the same thing as an i7 4770.

These products are nowhere, nowhere near the M1 Max. They are consumer laptop chips with ECC and vPro turned on.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by soylentnewsorg on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:48PM (#28996196)
Yes, your Xeon from 2013 example would be nowhere near the 2021 CPU from Apple. The outdated Xeon Apple had in their old laptops - a year behind everyone else, is also slower. The Xeon W-11955M however makes the M1 look like a kid's toy. In fact, if you remove 2 cores from that Xeon, you'll have my 6-core Xeon. Which also smokes that 10-core M1 in a bong.

I'm also not sure why you're sarcastic about ECC RAM. I have 128GB of RAM in my laptop. If it wasn't ECC, I'd have crashes in my VMs and errors in my calculations. When you go 32GB+ and actually use the RAM, anything that doesn't support ECC cannot be taken seriously for professional use. Like the M1 Max.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by paulmd on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:53PM (#28996222)
The point is that a laptop Xeon from 2021 is also going to be the same as an 1185G7 or something similar - because they’re the same silicon. It’s not like you’re getting more silicon because it’s a Xeon, it’s not a server chip, it’s just a laptop chip with the enterprise features enabled.

So, really no need to test them specifically. Go get an 1185G7 or something and you know what “Mobile Xeon” benches will look like. Anandtech already did those benches.

https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph17024/117496.png

[dead]
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by paulmd on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @12:07AM (#28996284)
Just to humor you I looked it up - your Xeon W-11955M is the same chip as a consumer 11980HK, which is one of the processors in Anandtech’s benchmark. Same cores, same cache, same clocks, slightly lower TDP limit - the consumer one has a 65W boost configuration. It is the same TGL-H die with (very slight) variations in what feature fuses are blown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Lake#List_of_Tiger_Lake_...

So based on Anandtech’s benchmark you can pretty much extrapolate how that is going to go - slightly lower performance and slightly higher efficiency due to TDP limiting clocks a bit, but same cache, same core configuration, etc mean that it’ll be identical to if you went into bios on a 11980HK and set a lower power limit.

By the way the 11980HK is specifically the chip they called out the M1 Max as being a factor-of-6 more power efficient than. And in fact they said exactly what I just said - that limiting TDP will reduce performance on the 11955M and the perf/W gap will close a bit, but the performance gap will get even wider.

> In multi-threaded tests, the 11980HK is clearly allowed to go to much higher power levels than the M1 Max, reaching package power levels of 80W, for 105-110W active wall power, significantly more than what the MacBook Pro here is drawing. The performance levels of the M1 Max are significantly higher than the Intel chip here, due to the much better scalability of the cores. The perf/W differences here are 4-6x in favour of the M1 Max, all whilst posting significantly better performance, meaning the perf/W at ISO-perf would be even higher than this.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...

What’s your dealie, why so toxic?

[dead]
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by gjm11 on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @10:26AM (#29000826)
> The m1 max TDP is projected to be 90W. The Xeon is 45W.

That article says that the M1 Max CPU TDP will be ~30W. The 90W figure is for the whole chip, which includes the GPU. The Xeon is just the CPU.

> here's that Xeon beating that 11090HK.

The CPUmark figure is 24092 for the Xeon, versus 23549 for the i9. That's a difference of about 2%. I suspect it's mostly down to statistical error. (Maybe it's also true that the Xeons tend to be put in systems whose other hardware is faster; I can see that going either way.)

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by panda88888 on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @03:37AM (#28997463)
Looking at the data in your second link, the performances differ by less than 3%. Looks like paulmd’s assertion that both are the same cpu core is fairly well supported by the data.
[dead]
[dead]
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by paulmd on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @02:01AM (#28996913)
Yes, it is the same cpu die with a few enterprise feature flags turned on, it’s no faster, it’s actually slower due to the lower TDP you note.

You don’t understand what you’re talking about and you’re openly hostile to the person who tried to explain it to you lol.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by dang on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @01:37PM (#29003463)
We've banned the other account, but you broke the site guidelines badly yourself in this thread, by feeding the flamewar and generally ignoring the rules. It's not ok to do that, regardless of how badly anyone else is behaving. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules in the future. Note this one:

"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead."

a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by soylentnewsorg on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:03AM (#28997614)
And a Porshe is the same as a Kia, just with a few racing features.

>You don’t understand what you’re talking about

So you look at the graph I linked that shows the Xeon model is faster than the consumer I9 chip. And your brain says "the Xeon is slower." Then tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

Tell me, do you ever stand in a lake and tell people you're dry? Are you in the lake to hide the pee? Do you tell people about the wonders of horse dewormer?

See, the only way your argument works is to compare the M1 to the I9. And despite the Xeon being faster than the I9, as literally and plainly shown in the tests I linked, you keep saying it's slower. ... But then you keep saying they're the same. Reality: it's faster, literally look at the numbers. Your mental gymnastics are amazing. I am not hostile. I have been getting great laughs and relaxation out of you. Yes, that comes at your expense.

> person who tried to explain it to you

By saying wet is dry. I get your explanation. I just see what my eyes tell me. You see blue, your brain says "nah, it's orange."

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by dang on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @01:36PM (#29003433)
We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. Please don't create accounts to do that with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by threeseed on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:29AM (#28997822)
> doesn't support ECC cannot be taken seriously for professional use. Like the M1 Max.

M1X is using DDR5 which does have on-die ECC.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by smoldesu on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @03:13PM (#29004889)
Just being pedantic, DDR5's implementation of on-die ECC is still not equivalent to the implementation on CPUs. It doesn't account for errors that occur during processing, and there's still a pretty significant chance of corruption in L1-3 caches.
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by rsynnott on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @10:54AM (#29001174)
> The outdated Xeon Apple had in their old laptops

Apple has never sold a laptop with a Xeon in it.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by DeRock on Monday October 25, 2021 @10:06PM (#28995630)
Can you share a laptop with one of them for comparison?
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by soylentnewsorg on Monday October 25, 2021 @11:31PM (#28996108)
One of my laptops is a Dell Precision 7760. Xeon W-11855M, NVIDIA RTX, 128GB ECC RAM. I don't need too much storage, but you can get it with 14TB if you want. Note mine is a 6-core. There is an 8-core available w/ the Xeon W-11955M, which is faster than mine.

It's only a little thicker than the macbook pro. It's keyboard doesn't break, and the product line has had a 4k screen since 5 years ago. It's 120Hz refresh rate. It has a very large power brick - 240W, it gets hot and loud with a huge fan exhaust. It's thick metal and about 7-9lb - you can run over it with a car. It only gets 9 hours battery w/ regular usage, and about 3 hours of "fan on time." Keep in mind, with the large and loud fan on, it can stay at 5GHz. This is called a pro laptop - a workstation. When I travel, I bring a 65W PSU, and it runs fine on that, just w/o turbo boost.

No, don't point to the lower "geekbench" score for this laptop - that's not a CPU test. GPU performance is a large part of that test, and they run the test on the default GPU. The M1 only has a single GPU. The Precision's default is the low power integrated graphics, not the discreet GPU. If you have a test where they assign the discreet GPU, please feel free to point it out.

As I've discussed before here, I have a shell script that runs in parallel with a bunch of VMs. My coworkers air (yes, I know it's not the max) runs it in 8-10 hours overnight. I run it over lunch. It loads, does calculations on, and creates graphs from several gig of ascii performance data.

What does compare in performance to the M1 air is my Latitude w/ the I7 in it. The M1 "max" is "max for apple" but competes with mid-tier laptops from everyone else. And that's ignoring the fact that it can't run pretty much any of the useful industry tools or games w/o recompiling x86 to arm on the fly.

Yes, I think my Dell cost the company $7-8k, without support. That's why it's called a pro laptop.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by DeRock on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @12:08AM (#28996290)
M1 max beats intels best CPU (which spoiler, is not their Xeon line) at both single threaded: https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc... And multithreaded: https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performanc...

You go on a diatribe about how it doesn’t compete, but your only source is some proprietary workload that you claim is much faster on your laptop.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by notafraudster on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @04:47AM (#28997933)
I feel like you have the setup necessary to produce an interesting, compelling argument here -- your benchmark seems, at least to some degree, less synthetic than some do, you have an uncommonly fast workstation which a lot of people doing comparison tests wouldn't be able to do...

... but the way you present it undermines your case a bit.

It seems like what you want to say is that if money is no object, weight is no object, heat is no object, battery life is no object, and portability is no object, but the comparison must absolutely be laptop to laptop, then there exists a laptop PC configuration that beats M1. If this is your point, then probably you want to compare an M1 Max to your PC, not your coworker's Macbook Air (which is a fanless laptop...)

I think this is a pretty unusual use case and there aren't too many people who are looking for this exact market segment. I definitely think it's fair to admit that Apple isn't intending to operate in this market segment, for better or worse.

You'd probably also want to drop the part about game support, since anyone who wants to play games can spend 1/4 what your workbench costs and get a shitkicking fast small form factor PC. But also, like, recompilation isn't what you should highlight -- what you should highlight is performance. If the recompilation is fast enough for users not to notice, then it doesn't matter, and if it's not, then the reason why it matters is performance, not recompilation.

Anyway, again, I don't think you're necessarily wrong or whatever here, but you're just presenting your point in a way that I think it's extremely unlikely anyone will care or be convinced.

(Also, "discrete")

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by vinay427 on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @05:23AM (#28998162)
“A little thicker” is a bit of an understatement. At its thickest point, it’s apparently 71% thicker than the thickest point of the 16-inch MacBook Pro (2021), and 55% thicker at its thinnest point compared to the thickest point of the Mac. That’s a huge difference for portable electronics.
Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by hajile on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @01:42PM (#29003536)
It's also "sale" price of $6,700 with a 2TB HD and just a 6-core CPU. Going with the 8-core xeon bumps price to Bump it up to $6,900 and moving to 8TB of SSD goes up to $9,200 ($8,000 for the 4TB version).

The 2TB M1 macbook 16" is $4,300 and the 8TB, max-specced version is $6,100.

I know Apple has a bad rap for high prices, but that machine's prices make Apple prices look bargain basement. You could almost buy TWO M1 macs for the price of one 4TB Dell.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by mixmastamyk on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @06:12PM (#29007014)
We all know luggables exist, they're in the laptop category in name only.

A more practical and better deal would be to get a standard laptop and a beefy workstation/grid you can ssh into.

Re:Rendering on the Apple M1 Max Chip by rsynnott on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @10:51AM (#29001126)
Laptop Xeons generally won't be doing too well here; I'm fairly certain they're _all_ smaller than the Xeon in the Mac Pro mentioned in the article.