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Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by willvarfar on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:46PM (#28961767)
I don’t get why this kind of thing keeps happening. It’s on a par with organizing a press conference outside an industry lot.

It takes relatively little money to bring in competent programmers to do things properly.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by jrm4 on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:08PM (#28962100)
"Money" isn't the issue.

It's "having people who understand the meaning of 'properly.'"

The number of people who understand the idea that "free OR open source code" is not equivalent to "I can take whatever source code I find anywhere and use it literally however I want" is vanishingly small, EVEN WITHIN THE IT INDUSTRY.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by entropyie on Saturday October 23, 2021 @08:48AM (#28967903)
This. I've Interviewed multiple senior engineer and dev manager candidates who couldn't tell me anything about software licensing, anything.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by mc32 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @08:51AM (#28967923)
That’s a question for legal to handle, unless you’re a two person shop.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by CydeWeys on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:12AM (#28968070)
You can escalate to legal for edge cases, but you should be able to handle base cases yourself. As an example, I work at Google on an Apache 2.0-licensed open source project, and we have dozens of third party dependencies: https://github.com/google/nomulus/blob/master/core/build.gra...

It wouldn't remotely scale across Google if we had to escalate to legal every single time we pulled in a new dependency. Instead, there's a company-wide allowlist of accepted software licenses, and you only need legal help for exceptions beyond that.

So yes, we do have to know some basics of software licensing. It's just part of being a SWE.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by orf on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:17AM (#28968100)
So a SWE just needs to see if the set of allowed licenses contains the project license. That doesn’t require any knowledge of the license itself, other than “they exist”.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by jdavis703 on Tuesday October 26, 2021 @01:06PM (#29003013)
It does though. Like why waste time if you know a viral GPL-style license or a patent encumbered license would be a no go?

This is akin to saying SWE’s don’t need to understand GDPR, COPA, HIPPA, DMCA or whatever. Obviously there might be cases where someone never touches code in a GDPR or HIPPA context. But any SWE working in those areas should damn well understand the basics of the law — at least enough to flag inadvertent, but none the less blatant violations.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by phendrenad2 on Tuesday November 02, 2021 @09:52AM (#29081199)
SWEs are all Star Wars trivia nerds, surely they can handle a few software licenses and GDPR rules and stuff.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by entropyie on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:34AM (#28968903)
So legal is going to tell you which NPM package to use in your NodeJS project? Is legal going to be sitting beside you when you're surfing github and see an awesome library that just happens to have an Affero GPL license?

If you're lucky, you'll have automated source scanning, legal will be informed after the fact, and you'll spend a week backing out the offending code and finding a replacement.

What's more likely is that it will be shipped to production and sit there until someone notices or you get sued ;)

Another one that likes to bite is the very not-open source Oracle extensions to open source Virtualbox / Vagrant... How many devs at big corps just click through that splash screen?

Thinking legal is going to protect you is wishful thinking... Devs need to know the basics.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by selfhoster11 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:10AM (#28968681)
Licensing isn't brain surgery. There is a grand total of five or so licenses that are in broad use today, perhaps a couple more if you include the LGPL and AGPL families. It's perfectly possible to learn what each of them do, or limit yourself to only using the ones that you understand.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by jrm4 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @02:52PM (#28971200)
No response proves my original point better than "That's a question for legal to handle, unless you're a two person shop."

Or perhaps even further -- it clearly demonstrates a reckless or willful ignorance of the entire topic.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by Iolaum on Saturday October 23, 2021 @09:49AM (#28968444)
No, At serious BigCo's developers (and their managers) are undergoing training on how to evaluate OSS software and only accept dependencies according to the company policies.

You don't develop complex software by having to go through legal for each of your dependencies.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by papito on Thursday October 28, 2021 @04:12AM (#29023618)
Why? What are the odds of me going to jail if I violate an open-source license in a small company? I think we are past societal norms at this point, and definitely post-shame.

This is relevant because we are talking about Trump, who I see as a termite of civilization, ignoring un-enforced rules and norms. "Who is going to stop me?"

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by rsynnott on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:25PM (#28964021)
I mean, it presumably takes relatively little money to bring in competent lawyers to do things properly, and yet that Four Seasons Landscaping thing happened. You're not, generally, talking about someone who appears to value (or perhaps even understand) competence.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by lotsofpulp on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:08AM (#28968662)
The someone also has a long history of screwing over many people he does business with, forcing them to waste time and money in court to get paid. It boggles my mind that anyone would still do business with him without having a legal team on staff.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by cure on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:54PM (#28961877)
Competence does not seem to be a core value of these people, we've seen that over and over and over again.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by Kafkish on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:54PM (#28962608)
Are you trying to tell me that the folks at Cyber Ninja, the firm that conducted the Arizona audit, are not competent?
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by Nihilartikel on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:50AM (#28969054)
Does anyone even really need to be told that?
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by AWildC182 on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:52PM (#28961849)
How many competent programmers (including being reasonable to work with) do you know who would willingly work for their campaign?
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by qaq on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:57PM (#28961914)
You honestly think there are no trump supporters among very competent programmers? I personally know at least 3.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by rconti on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:30PM (#28962359)
Of course there are. But it's not just about there being competent programmers "willing" to do this work.

You need:

* A competently run business

* Competent funding

* Competent recruiting

* Competent management

Programmers will generally want to be paid. They'll need a well-run organization, and before you can even hire and pay them, you have to find and recruit them. Not just someone interested and willing to do the work, but interested and willing to forego their existing role, and to forego their existing role for one that is, frankly, not likely to be around in another 6 months, given the track record of these kinds of organizations.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by qaq on Friday October 22, 2021 @05:11PM (#28962783)
Yep very valid points
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by whateveracct on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:02PM (#28962002)
Programmers are some of the most contrarian people out there, after all.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by crummy on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:17PM (#28963940)
No they're not!
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by slenk on Friday October 22, 2021 @10:18PM (#28965084)
I disagree
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by mustardo on Saturday October 23, 2021 @06:09AM (#28967092)
You are incorrect
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by rory on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:06PM (#28962060)
Would the Trump-supporting programmers you know be fine having "Trump Social Media Platform" as the latest job on their resume?

I'd guess fear of ostracism in mainstream tech would filter out more people than actual politics.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by landa on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:25PM (#28962288)
Regardless of your politics, you should never avoid doing something you believe in just because someone might dislike you for it.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by bibrye on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:58PM (#28963778)
My health insurance is tied to my employer. I have more to risk than being disliked by building the next e-commerce platform fo r Trump Steaks.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by selfhoster11 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:13AM (#28968711)
If the dislike translates into being jobless, you bet I would be keeping my trap shut.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by qaq on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:55PM (#28962622)
They are pretty public about their position but they are in HFT
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by rsynnott on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:26PM (#28964041)
I'm not sure they'd want to _work at his company_ though. Imagine what a shitshow the management will be.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by abenga on Saturday October 23, 2021 @02:03AM (#28966148)
It seems inconsistent to believe this _and_ still want him to run the country.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by DonHopkins on Saturday October 23, 2021 @10:05AM (#28968632)
They're just fine with all the incompetence and racism because they think he'll punish the people they don't like, but then they're disappointed and surprised when it backfires on them.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/tr...

>“He’s not hurting the people he needs to be”: a Trump voter says the quiet part out loud

>A Trump voter hurt by the shutdown reveals the real reason the president attracts hardcore supporters.

>[...] “I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” Minton told Mazzei. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”

>He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.

>Think about that line for a second. Roll it over in your head. In essence, Minton is declaring that one aim of the Trump administration is to hurt people — the right people. Making America great again, in her mind, involves inflicting pain.

>This is not an accident. Trump’s political victory and continuing appeal depend on a brand of politics that marginalizes and targets groups disliked by his supporters. Trump supporters don’t so much love the Republican party as they hate Democrats, a phenomenon political scientists call “negative partisanship.” They like Trump not because he sells them on the GOP, but because they believe he’ll stick it to the Democrats harder than anyone else.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by jokethrowaway on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:06PM (#28962069)
I would do it just to stick it to Big Tech and their censorship.

Still, as a rule I don't work for governments and politicians because they are perpetrators of violence and they're mostly unpunished by society.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by yumraj on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:07PM (#28962078)
A lot of programmers work for FB also despite everything. Also, many work for other ethically questionable companies.

So, for the right price, I’m sure a lot.

However, given what has been reported about wage theft and lawsuits, whether they will pay is a whole different question.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by evolve2k on Friday October 22, 2021 @05:50PM (#28963192)
Beyond their shameful business operations they bring deep engineering expertise, practices and processes and a founder who understands code and running a massive scaled technology firm.

That is not the case here.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by trutannus on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:54PM (#28961881)
Contractors from a country that does not give a fig about American politics? So plenty of options are on the table.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by AWildC182 on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:56PM (#28961903)
But... But... That would go against what their platform says!
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by isomorphic on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:41PM (#28962482)
/s, I know, but: A platform is a mechanism to obtain power, not a prescription for how power is practiced.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by theshadowknows on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:58PM (#28961940)
I dunno most contractors like to get paid. I’m not sure but the Trump company does sort of have a history of not paying workers. I’m not arguing whether or not they should’ve. But it is kind of a _thing_
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by Kafkish on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:58PM (#28962656)
But those would then be immigrants, right? And likely will need to come in under H1B or something. How will owners of that platform react to hiring to immigrants?
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by trutannus on Friday October 22, 2021 @05:14PM (#28962826)
> But those would then be immigrants, right?

No?! Why on earth would that be the logical conclusion? This is almost funny in how Americentric these threads become. You can outsource your project elsewhere. It's very common. America isn't the only country in the world that has software engineers who are competent.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by klyrs on Friday October 22, 2021 @05:47PM (#28963164)
MAGA hats were pretty famously made in China. That doesn't mean they were made by immigrants (though, I don't know anything about immigration in China)
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by satronaut on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:26PM (#28963532)
Source on this? I thought they were American made but the manufacturer feared for their life so they never publicly said who made them
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by klyrs on Friday October 22, 2021 @06:28PM (#28963542)
Ah, my mistake. The story doesn't appear to be entirely clear-cut, but the hats labeled 'made in china' are apparently knock-offs.

https://apnews.com/article/archive-fact-checking-6391630154

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by rodgerd on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:27PM (#28962318)
I'm sure prominent Trump supporter Peter Theil can find a few.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by qayxc on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:01PM (#28961988)
< It takes relatively little money to bring in competent programmers to do things properly.

But even then there's much time and risk saved by using readily available solutions instead. The problem isn't basing your work on OSS, the problem is the license violation and that can easily be avoided.

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by JumpCrisscross on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:03PM (#28962027)
> the license violation and that can easily be avoided

And easily cured. What secret sauce could there possibly be in their modifications that early on?

Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by rory on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:11PM (#28962134)
I like to imagine someone is frantically deleting a QAnon bot right now.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by mogopugh on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:06PM (#28962067)
Merit isn't the dominant criteria.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by ProjectArcturis on Friday October 22, 2021 @03:53PM (#28961874)
The Trump group is not known for bringing in competence or doing things properly.
Re:Trump's new platform and the Affero General Public Licens... by rodgerd on Friday October 22, 2021 @04:28PM (#28962332)
Trump's whole business career has been a grift of doing things that he knows are illegal, and then dragging out court proceedings until the people he's ripping off give up.

Why would he change now?