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Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by andi999 on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:00AM (#28955703)
Looks like victim blaming. While this might be justified, the article doesnt give enough substance to do so. Also I disagree that Holmes is a scapegoat here (expect if you could make a case that she is not liable for her actions).
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by sschueller on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:40AM (#28956028)
The VCs are definitely not victims here. Their own greed and incompetency to listen to experts put them in that position.

The real victims are the people that received the results from such fraudulent tests and maybe even received improper treatments because of it.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by JackFr on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:58AM (#28956159)
They are literally the victims. Elizabeth Holmes made representations which she knew to be false to secure investments. That is explicitly fraud.

That investors may have been foolish and greedy does not take away from the fact that Holmes acted to deceive them.

If I leave the keys in the ignition of my sports car and it’s stolen, I’m a very foolish person, but certainly no less the victim of a car theft.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by thow-58d4e8b on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:56AM (#28956650)
> Elizabeth Holmes made representations which she knew to be false to secure investments. That is explicitly fraud.

the problem - this became an institutionalized modus operandi of Silicon Valley, finance, higher education, IP law, crypto, even real estate - essentially the entire economy of intangible goods and services. As Jim Chanos put in ‘We are in the golden age of fraud’ - lying to investors, public or congress or courts became so normalized that people no longer see any problem with it

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by derbOac on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:37AM (#28957037)
Not to minimize what happened with Theranos but I suspect a lot of discussion around it is and has been shaped by the larger problem it is a small part of. Yes, there was blatant fraud and lots of blame and harm of various sorts to go around the whole network associated with it, but for every one Theranos there's who knows how many more that are part of something more subtle but collectively no less problematic. Maybe Holmes was engaging in outright fraud, but for every one Holmes doing that, there's probably 100s across various fields bending the truth systematically to various degrees short of what Theranos represents.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by dannyr on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:23AM (#28956375)
"If I leave the keys in the ignition of my sports car and it’s stolen, I’m a very foolish person, but certainly no less the victim of a car theft."

Except that the investors gave the keys of their cars to Holmes. Holmes didn't grab their money without their permission.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by sschueller on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:24AM (#28956392)
If you talk to your insurance, you are not the victim. They won't pay out a claim if you left your key in the car.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by relaunched on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:21AM (#28956862)
They'd say you didn't take reasonable care.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by projektfu on Friday October 22, 2021 @10:53AM (#28958012)
And then, in the US, if you have comprehensive coverage, they'd pay the claim.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by short12 on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:33AM (#28956983)
What kind of crap insurance do you have?

Mine certainly does

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by JackFr on Friday October 22, 2021 @11:13AM (#28958260)
That's not true.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by JackFr on Friday October 22, 2021 @11:06AM (#28958181)
She told them she was the valet.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by sumedh on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:30AM (#28956959)
> Elizabeth Holmes made representations which she knew to be false to secure investments.

Lot of companies do that atleast with software. Didnt Bill Gates tell IBM that they have an OS when they didnt and then bought an OS from someone else?

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by projektfu on Friday October 22, 2021 @10:37AM (#28957764)
Being on the purchasing end of things, I see it pretty commonly with software. While it's being sold, they tell you that it does things. During installation, they tell you those things are having the bugs ironed out and will be available soon. After installation and a few months of use, they ask you to participate in a focus group about how the features should look when they get around to starting them.

However, the software people rarely try to gaslight you into believing that the features actually do exist and you don't need them anyway. At least, in my experience. And, when pressed by customers, they usually fess up that the features are still "under development".

Listening to the "The Dropout" podcast, the thing that is striking is that Theranos had a bunch of things they said to investors and customers (Walgreens, Safeway) that they would not fess up to in deposition before the SEC. All of a sudden, the genius founder can't remember hardly anything of what happened in the last 10 years.

I don't doubt that Holmes wanted it to work. I think she thought that in the first few years, her R&D lab would actually be producing a machine that did what they claimed, and that they'd just be running the tests in house until the FDA approval came to sell them to everyone and his dog. But it seems she and the other brass didn't want to ever hear that they were not succeeding. And so they had to lie.

I was pretty disappointed because the articles about it made it seem like she had made or been part of a breakthrough in her undergraduate research to dramatically reduce the sample size. Imagine the applications in veterinary medicine! But this was not the case, she took existing tech and then started raising investment on the promise that it could be extended by sufficiently smart people, and then sold an image of herself as a prodigy to keep the ball rolling, while immunizing herself to the reality of the actual performance of the machines.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by andi999 on Saturday October 23, 2021 @07:08AM (#28967348)
The big difference is that they knew they could make it fast. It is like you are a carpenter and say you have a table in stock which you didn't build yet.

The big difference is she didn't have anything and no viable path to deliver it. A fundamental step had to be made which wasn't there. It is like promising anti gravity flight. If you have a functioning anti gravity Prototyp you can probably make a plane with enough engineering. If you don't it will not happen no matter how much money you pour in.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by bserge on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:41AM (#28957081)
Any records of what she actually said to investors? Imo, it was likely just the usual pitch with vague promises and a lot of "believe/estimate/think/consider/approximately/likely/close to/in development". Just like any other startup before they strike it big or lose millions.

Looks more like she "messed with the wrong mf'ers" as they say. Tbf, $1 billion is a lot of money.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by AussieWog93 on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:16AM (#28956320)
>Their own greed and incompetency to listen to experts put them in that position.

You could say the same thing about any fraud victims, especially love scams[1].

[1]"Police statistics show more than 75 per cent of people caught up in online romance scams refuse to believe they're being ripped off." https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/am/online-love-fraud-v...

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by em-bee on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:32AM (#28956457)
that's not the same thing. VCs are professional experienced investors and they failed doing their job.

someone falling for a romance scam is simply inexperienced in that matter, and should not be expected to know better

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by LudwigNagasena on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:48AM (#28956578)
This is literally victim-blaming. Someone who walks alone at a bad neighborhood should have known better, it doesn’t make them less of a victim if they get mugged or raped.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by em-bee on Friday October 22, 2021 @10:00AM (#28957273)
i am not saying that VCs are not victims, but that there is a difference between a victim that should have known better and one that should not be expected to know better.

there is also a big difference between loosing your life savings and a failed investment, given that the majority of investments fail anyways.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by AussieWog93 on Friday October 22, 2021 @08:43AM (#28956542)
>someone falling for a romance scam is simply inexperienced in that matter, and should not be expected to know better

People that fall for romance scams tend to be older and significantly more experienced (in terms of life and love) than people who don't. They also continue with the relationship even when friends, family and eventually law enforcement sit down with them and show them that it's a scam.

I think many of these scams really highlight our innate desire to fool ourselves, especially when we are desperate and hopeful.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by em-bee on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:52AM (#28957184)
older and significantly more experienced (in terms of life and love)

i doubt that older people are more experienced.

being married for a decade or two does nothing to prepare you for an online relationship.

older people likely never had an online relationship before and also weren't switching partners as often when they were young as people nowadays tend to. if they were they should have less trouble finding a new partner.

they are falling for online relationships precisely because they don't know how to find a partner otherwise.

but that isn't even the issue.

i don't know if i could tell the difference between a genuine relationship and a well executed pretender. not meeting in person makes it really hard to verify the claims being made.

what is puzzling is why someone would give up their life savings for someone they haven't even meet yet in person.

some expensive gifts for a few thousand dollars, sure, but all i have? that's something i'd bring into a marriage and only use if it is really needed. but then, i am a skeptic by nature.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by andi999 on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:48AM (#28956098)
"Their own greed and incompetency to listen to experts put them in that position" Maybe, but the article does not provide good evidence for that. In hindsight everything is obvious. One argument that it would have problems with regulations might also not be valid, since if you really manage to build something everybody wants to buy often regulation follows suite to allow for that.
Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by sschueller on Friday October 22, 2021 @07:59AM (#28956171)
There were a lot of warning signs and even if the VC had invested already the could have killed it before it all collapsed in a giant media scandal.

Same goes for SpaceX's point to point travel. It will never happen and there are many warning signs pointing to this fact. For example in their presentation they list a large list of cities, many of those are completely out of the question. So in essence a blatant lie.

Sure SpaceX probably wont go under because they have some real projects but it is quite questionable for a company to make such claims knowing it will never meet them.

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by andi999 on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:06AM (#28956747)
Yes. But let's say the investor thinks: sure the point to point is silly, but the real market is to compute with the Ariane programm, and space x will win; it is still justified to invest. Of course if the space x launches so far were in reality all cgi rendered, then that is fraud, but one shdnt say that this could have been obvious since there were warning signs.

Maybe I am wrong but such announcements which clearly will never happen are just PR, like Ryanair announcing every couple of years that they either charge for toilets or remove the seats, both which will probably not happen in any near future but it gives them free press coverage.

So what were the warning signs before investors invested?

Re:Elizabeth Holmes is on trial for fraud, but don't forget ... by sschueller on Friday October 22, 2021 @09:38AM (#28957052)
To me that is way beyond some PR. Saying the rocket will be red and then it's blue, that might be PR, it doesn't affect the overall business and in the larger of things is irrelevant. Clamming you will be providing p2p travel to many destinations in the world is a whole other segment.

These announcements go beyond PR, they are borderline fraud.