News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by DeathArrow on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:16AM (#28927002)
Google used to be good at one point in time. Now its search results aren't very relevant, it returns what it thinks it should interest you, not what you've actually searched for. It doesn't matter if you do a verbatim search, it will still try to be smart and use alternative terms.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by 1_player on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:24AM (#28927061)
I hate how smart it tries to be.

Sometimes you need to search an intentional misspelling, say, "Aple" (just an example), Google will helpfully try to correct you with "did you mean Apple?", and even if you put the word in quotes you still get results for Apple, not my intentionally misspelled search. Listen to what I'm trying to tell you, dumb machine.

They've tweaked it so it only respond to what it thinks you want to search, not what you've asked of it, and there's no way around it.

Computers are so much better when they take your input literally.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by banana_giraffe on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:49AM (#28927214)
The smartness gets me, especially with the image search. It used to be pretty useful.

Now Google seems to really want me to see what its ML model thinks is in the image. No, when I upload a picture of an actor, I'm not trying to search for pictures of "adult" or "man". Or, my recent favorite that had three people in the image, a suggested search for "sharing".

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by cromwellian on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:38AM (#28927134)
I tried your example both with and without quotes and I got Apple Hospitality which seems to be correct.

Humans make so many typos that for the majority of people, autocorrecting is a net win.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by 1_player on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:31AM (#28927429)
I knew someone would try, which is why I specified this was just an example, I'm sure this time with that made up word it works, but when it doesn't it's pretty obvious and infuriating.

And autocorrect is a net loss if you can't correct the autocorrect.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by AlexAndScripts on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:48AM (#28927210)
I wish there was a mode for "do as I ask"
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by DeathArrow on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:05AM (#28927295)
They have it. It is called verbatim search. Just that it doesn't do what it is supposed to.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by gremIin on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:12AM (#28927333)
So they don't have it.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by skinkestek on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:51AM (#28927582)
> I wish there was a mode for "do as I ask"

There is verbatim and back in the day this is also what doublequotes meant.

Google has gotten away by blaming it on spam since back when matt_cutts was here, but I fail to see how spam can possibly be the reason why neither doublequotes nor verbatim works (edit:) unless spammers have found their way into Googles ranking algorithm to neuter all exact match operators.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by toyg on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @06:40AM (#28929103)
They should call it sudo. It would be an absolute hit.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by 1_player on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @03:06PM (#28934764)
They had it. The fact it doesn't work anymore is probably because some big brains at Google strongly believe that their AI knows better. Such hubris is the reason why Google sucks today and it absolutely rocked 20 years ago.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by Kiro on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:50AM (#28929559)
Why not use a real example instead of "Aple" (which returns what you expect: the stock for Apple Hospitality REIT)? Shouldn't be hard at all if this really is such a common problem.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by Kye on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @10:29AM (#28931048)
I can't speak for others, but I move on in frustration. I don't meticulously document Google's myriad failures. Even if I dove into my search history to find one, odds are good you wouldn't have the same experience. And the divergence would increase with time and further training of the AI, to the point that even I wouldn't get the same result.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by mrtksn on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:36AM (#28927127)
Every NLP AI is like that, it’s like trying to make a mentally challenged person do something for you and you have to correct them for something extremely simple and it is frustrating.

Yes, Google, I did not type North Korea DHL by accident. I really mean the odd one because I’m curious if they have DHL but I really don’t feel like explaining it to you. Could you please simply don’t assume stuff by default? I appreciate the “did you mean” suggestions but let’s not try to be too smart.

Google was great when it understood that North Korea and DPRK are the same thing but these days it’s like “North Korea DHL? You must be trying to send a package to Republic of Korea”. Maybe that’s because there’s not much ad revenue from helping out people to get information about DPRK.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by Kiro on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:45AM (#28927540)
I only get relevant results such as "Does DHL deliver to North Korea?" and "DHL establishes operation in North Korea". Do you have a better example actually illustrating this?
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by mrtksn on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:59AM (#28927625)
This time it returned relevant result for me too, I recall getting annoyed by it some time ago so maybe its not relevant example anymore.

Anyway, it happens all the time. Goole assumes that I mean something and I need to quote words trying to enforce my query. Pretty much every time when the returned results don't include the words I typed is a frustration for me. It makes it very hard to fix the query because I need to study every result instead of having no results or obviously low quality results.

It's especially hard when I'm not well versed in the subject, so I need to go through the results only to realize that these results are not about the thing I'm looking for.

BTW, I do less Googling these days. I would usually search Reddit, HN and StackOverflow directly from their websites as the search results would be from the expected domain and not too smart but just enough smart to correct typos etc. Also the filters work better.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by meesles on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @04:50AM (#28928332)
This seems somewhat natural, at least to me.

Imagine you're talking to your friend, and you say the exact same thing you tell Google: "North Korea DHL". They're not going to have any idea what you're talking about (they can guess) - do you want to ship something there? Are you making a comment/observation? A business opportunity? Your friend would probably ask clarifying questions to narrow down what you're talking about, or you would be more specific upfront.

Computers don't magically read your mind nor they know your intent. Adding quotes to search and other 'advanced' techniques are the equivalent of adding context to a conversation.

Personally I have rarely experienced what you have, and when I do it's usually for specific international queries (like searching for a Belgian slang word from Google US) which isn't an issue if you use the correct locale/language for what you're searching for. Obviously it's not perfect, I'm just surprised by your anecdote in the absence of a real example.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by mrtksn on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:14AM (#28928506)
It's possible that my habits don't represent how the general population uses the search. I've read that many people are asking questions, not simply searching for keyword and as a result Google tries to optimize for that. But then again, when I ask questions it's also hit and miss for me.

I also no longer get good navigation suggestion from Google Maps, maybe my constant frustration with Google lately is pushing me to be too dismissive about all of their products. Surely they do great things but I'm not as happy with Google as I used to be.

I find that systems trying to predict my intent are unbearable when they fail, it just feels like trying to interact with a very stupid person.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by meesles on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:41AM (#28930548)
I think you're right with both points - most technology isn't designed for tech-savvy people like you and me, AND technology that tries to predict human intent is doomed to fail.

When you want build a 'smart' system in the absence of true AI (which does not exist), the only real solution is to build a product for the majority, or support configuration for everyone. The latter seems pretty tough for a search engine. That being said, the advanced search features are just that, an attempt to give the 5% the control they need to do what they want. Whether it works or not is another story.

It doesn't really excuse that the product fails you as a user, but at least it's a reasonable explanation (IMO). As I wrote this, I started thinking about plumbers/electricians going to a hardware store or interacting with electric/plumbing products designed for the general population. I'm sure they feel similar frustrations!

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by DeathArrow on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:08AM (#28927309)
Are they using AI for search? That would be a recipe for getting relevant search results only sometimes since AI is based on statistic models.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by gremIin on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:11AM (#28927325)
They're using AI for everything now.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by ApolIllo on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:13AM (#28927342)
So what did you find out? Does DHL deliver to DPRK?
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by mrtksn on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:19AM (#28927369)
Apparently they do deliver and they even have a branch in Pyongyang.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuMsDf-z_hs

And the AI was better this time, it returned DHL's page as the first result: https://mydhl.express.dhl/kp/en/contact-us.html

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by lopis on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @05:00AM (#28928410)
Definitely agree. My experience with Google lately is like this:

- I search for keywords A B C D - I get 4 irrelevant text ads - First result is relevant and contains all keywords - "Other related searches" - Then a list of results than omit A, B, C or D ("include A?"), or even omit multiple keywords, removing any sense in the query

And the whole time I feel like I'm being pushed around to buy something. It's becoming unbearable. I'm pretty sure Google is optimizing for more ad impressions at this point to burn through adsense credits asap...

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by diss on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:31AM (#28927430)
This is interesting to me because I've been left with the opposite impression. I've tried several times to switch to an alternative such as Duckduckgo and _always_ end up supplementing it and eventually switching back to Google because the results just aren't what I'm after. It's fine when the answers I want exist on Stackoverflow for example, but anything more esoteric or less specific and I find myself disappointed. I'd love to switch permanently.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by decrypt on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:17AM (#28927014)
I haven't used Google for many years, so I can't speak to whether it shows personalized results today. But, I recently switched to Whoogle Search (https://github.com/benbusby/whoogle-search) which shows Google results but without the tracking. I am happy with it, that I have completely ditched DuckDuckGo in favor of it.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by DeathArrow on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:26AM (#28927081)
There is also startpage.com, which gives you Google search results but with privacy. But my problem is finding relevant information.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by vincent_s on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @03:05AM (#28927655)
Startpage is now owned by an advertising company [1]

[1] https://restoreprivacy.com/startpage-system1-privacy-one-gro...

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by freediver on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @07:37PM (#28938287)
Hmm "advertising company" as in "a company that is in the business of selling ads"? So same like Google, DuckDuckGo and Brave?
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by heavyset_go on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @01:26AM (#28927075)
This can be aggravating when you're looking up an error message or exception that follows the same format as other errors.
Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by userbinator on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @09:31AM (#28930419)
Error codes are even worse. If I'm looking for 1234, I do NOT want results for 1235 or 1233.

In trying to be smart, it becomes worse than retarded. I guess it could be called the "uncanny valley" of AI.

Re:Brave Search replaces Google as default search engine in ... by Closi on Wednesday October 20, 2021 @02:47AM (#28927548)
> returns what it thinks it should interest you, not what you've actually searched for.

It also returns what if thinks google will profit the most from - I’ve noticed a huge uptick in the number of ads which are poor-quality results and usually take both the top 4 and bottom 4 positions on the first page.