News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by dfdz on Saturday October 16, 2021 @05:13PM (#28891578)
I have seen this article before. The author are so close to understanding why Spotify does NOT need a dislike button

>To dislike a song is easy – to like one, you have to actually invest time in it.

Likewise, to detect if a user dislikes a song is easy since the user will not invest time listening to it: the skip button is the dislike button.

In contrast, detecting if a user likes a song is more difficult: there needs to be a way to distinguish between a user enjoying a song and the user not paying attention (in that case the user will provide no input whether they like the song or not.)

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by jdsully on Saturday October 16, 2021 @05:32PM (#28891767)
Sometimes your just not in the mood for a specific song or genre. A skip doesn’t imply I’d never want to hear a song again.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by dfdz on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:50PM (#28892656)
I suspect that this same effect is close to the reason so many services removed the dislike button: humans are emotional and were, in some cases, disliking songs which they were not in the mood for, but would like at another time.

As a result, the signal coming from the dislike button was not very useful, and just added unnecessary complexity. Instead, the algorithm can present the user a fixed song in different settings to see if they continue to skip it. A nice result is that the user doesn’t have the negative reaction “hey I disliked this song why are you presenting it to me again”

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by xerox13ster on Saturday October 16, 2021 @08:26PM (#28892863)
I frequently will find one of their auto-mixes I like, and listen to it for a while throughout the day skipping songs I don't like or I'm not in the mood for. Then when I go back the next day, even if I didn't restart the mix, it has updated, and what plays isn't the stuff I liked and repeated. It was the stuff they have financial incentive to get plays on that I skipped the day before and "might be in the mood for now".

This alone drove me back to my local music library.

I would rather dislike a song and have it recommended in a "How about now" playlist to determine if I actually hate it or if it was a mood in the moment.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by bombcar on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:34AM (#28894220)
I used to track “skip counts” in iTunes and would review the most skipped songs every month or so and determine if they needed to be reduced in star count.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by Socketier on Sunday October 17, 2021 @08:38AM (#28896028)
It would be nice if when you skipped a song it would do a soft pop up or something to ask why you skipped it. You could ignore it most of the time but if you felt strongly about the recommendation then you could at least vent your frustration on the "I don't like this song" button.

I think the main issue here is, is that users feel a bit powerless to influence the algorithm with thier dislikes as much as thier likes. Even though a song skip may be functionally similar to the dislike button, the user has no "haptic feedback", for lack of better term, when they really feel the need to have their negative opinion on the song heard by the algorithm.

I think most people's gripes with the nature of these recommendation algorithms deciding things, centre around the feeling that the algorithm doesn't listen to them and their opinion as much as it obeys other overriding trends. Giving them tangible and tactile options to deliver their opinions in hard and fast way gives them some more peace of mind that the algorithm is working for them, and not for some other entity.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by crucialfelix on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:25AM (#28894181)
It can also just mean that I've heard it too many times. Give me something fresh, a hit of dopamine please
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by ascorbic on Sunday October 17, 2021 @02:46AM (#28894505)
I'm sure they can take that into account.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by charcircuit on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:42PM (#28892614)
A song you always want to listen to is better than one you only want to listen to sometimes.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by kristopolous on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:50PM (#28892653)
It's far more complicated than that.

Some songs have extremely long shelf life and others are extremely short. For instance, an "adult contemporary" station could probably get away with playing Elton John's "Tiny Dancer", a 49-year old song, without anyone thinking anything is weird.

More popular songs of that year such as those by Roberta Flack or Gilbert O'Sullivan would not get the same non-reaction

Some songs have even longer shelf life that are associated with real world things like birthdays, holidays, seasons, etc. It's pretty common to hear a set of Christmas music that was literally recorded during WW2 with everyone's approval.

Some songs grow on people, others grow tired quickly. The classic example is novelty songs that specify a dance such as the cover of The Birdie Song by The Tweets or Black Lace's Agadoo, which reached impressive popularity and then were promptly forgotten forever. Ones that you may be familiar with such as Rick Martin's Macarena, probably gave you a headache just thinking about it.

But not all. Chubby Checker's "The Twist", a song in this category of instructional dance pop music, has escaped the ban hammer of time.

But overall the pattern of memory holing proscribed dance songs is robust, even for songs that developed a dance without actually calling it out, such as "Achy Beaky Heart".

Also there's no asymptotic drop after release date. Some songs that are popular now and symbolic of an era weren't as popular when they were new and some have second lives when featured in say a television show, video game, or covered by a more contemporary artist. Every few years a new version of Gershwin's "Summertime" seems to come out followed by renewed interest in previous versions by people like Billie Holiday, Janis Joplin and Ella Fitzgerald. Should Ella Fitzgerald albums be recommended to people for the next 18 months now? Probably not the right way to interpret those results.

There's an exogenous contextual reason for such things and those have to be accommodated for

It's completely non-trivial and a simple model of skips and likes without sophistication behind it will dramatically fail to be anything other than an irritation

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by asveikau on Sunday October 17, 2021 @12:20AM (#28893928)
> Ones that you may be familiar with such as Rick Martin's Macarena

It was done by a group from Seville. Los del río. Very southern Spanish accent which is quite different from Ricky Martin.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by kristopolous on Sunday October 17, 2021 @01:34AM (#28894222)
Gosh you are correct on that. My apologies. I don't know why I associated the two, I try to be pretty good on this stuff.

I'll need to review 90s Latin pop again. Sorry about that.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by petre on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:17AM (#28894835)
You should see the video: two elderly men and some underage looking dancers. Nothing like Ricky Martin.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by verve_rat on Saturday October 16, 2021 @05:30PM (#28891748)
But there is a difference between "I don't feel like this now" and "I hate this" that skipping a track doesn't capture.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by PeterisP on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:20AM (#28894604)
That difference is easily captured by the cases where you don't skip that track. If you have listened to a track two times and on the third case skip it, then that's "I don't feel like this now"; if you have been offered that track twice and skipped it both times immediately, then you probably hate this.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by owlmirror on Sunday October 17, 2021 @04:50AM (#28894958)
Or I just am not in the mood again. If I do not like something I want a way to tell the engine that and not be afraid of skipping my favorite songs because I want to listen to them at another time. I think alogrithms are great but feel really frustrated and helpless because it somehow became impossible to explicilty give it signals or tweak it. It's like living together with someone who always tries to guess your needs but you are not allowed to talk to them. That's just a broken system.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by Tempest1981 on Sunday October 17, 2021 @06:04AM (#28895272)
I often leave my computer playing music, and step away for 15+ minutes to have a conversation. So "you have listened to a track two times" may be a false indication of "like".
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Saturday October 16, 2021 @05:38PM (#28891827)
Surely they have some context as to what "now" means?

I read that YouTube Music recommends different music depending on time of day, whether I'm at work / home / in the car, and even takes the weather into account. I'd be surprised if Spotify didn't have some context awareness as well.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by oriolid on Saturday October 16, 2021 @06:10PM (#28892021)
I haven't noticed that Spotify would do anything like that. Instead they're pushing their podcasts and curated playlists. To be honest, I've thought that they're more like banner ads on websites rather an attempt at custom recommendation.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by smrq on Saturday October 16, 2021 @09:59PM (#28893330)
They can't possibly have sufficient context.

I recently got super into the band Squid. But I hated them the first time I heard them. It was because I was depressed and looking for more music like Black Midi-- Black Country New Road came up and was perfect. Squid came up and made me want to punch my speakers.

If they have enough data to predict my mood to that extent then I would like to hire them as my therapist.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by nimonian on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:14AM (#28895047)
Same! Started with Squid and Spotify took me to Black Midi, Yard Act, Dry Cleaning, all of whom I'd skipped in the past because I just didn't get it, now I'm obsessed. Some music just defies understanding on a first lesson.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by bagacrap on Monday October 18, 2021 @10:07AM (#28905560)
it's not perfect, but ytm does what gp says. "You often listen to X in the morning" can be helpful even if it doesn't know about personal events in your life
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by didibus on Saturday October 16, 2021 @06:20PM (#28892085)
No, I often have fear of skipping because I think it might teach the algos I don't like it, when it's just not what I want to listen to now.

Ideally, they should let me like, dislike, skip, hate, completely block artists, and allow me to like multiple times, to teach them the ones I like over and over from the ones I like a little.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by dfdz on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:44PM (#28892628)
> I often have fear of skipping because I think it might teach the algos I don't like it

So basically Spotify is performing reinforcement learning on you— beautiful!

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by VortexDream on Sunday October 17, 2021 @08:03AM (#28895855)
Beautiful? No, fucking awful. How can you consider this a good thing when there's no way to teach the service what you want to listen to and when?
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by cplusplusfellow on Saturday October 16, 2021 @09:40PM (#28893231)
There are 3 artists that Spotify continually play to me and I preemptively will fast forward them even during the crossover play because I dislike them so much. I’ve submitted requests before to have a “don’t play me this artist” feature. I don’t know why this is so hard for them.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by prepend on Saturday October 16, 2021 @09:43PM (#28893245)
Probably because Spotify takes payment from artists to play their songs. Promoting before a new album, etc.

If they let you block artists then this is less money for them.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by oceanghost on Sunday October 17, 2021 @12:52AM (#28894052)
Youtube for me, fixates on a couple of videos-- as in it recommends them every single time I use it-- one is a Marques Brown retrospective on the Gameboy, and one is the TYT (news outlet), story about a woman who had her face bitten off by an ape and is at least 8 years old.

I don't know why these show up in my recommendations every single day. I will never watch them.

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by graftak on Sunday October 17, 2021 @05:36AM (#28895144)
With YouTube you can mark them as ‘not interested’ and poof, they’re gone.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by oceanghost on Sunday October 17, 2021 @10:55AM (#28896914)
I mostly use the YouTube app on my google TV which is notoriously... behind the times. I will look for that thank you!
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by tomjen3 on Monday October 18, 2021 @12:47AM (#28902323)
Even if it isn't, if you login to youtube briefly on a computer, you can set it there, then it should be reflected on your tv.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by Ageodene on Sunday October 17, 2021 @06:30AM (#28895393)
Deezer have that option. When you're listening to something you don't like you can click on a little frowny face, then they will ask you if you want to never hear this song again or the artist. It's neat.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by petre on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:58AM (#28894757)
Shouldn't they have at least have a report as inapropriate content button? So my mom could then report Cradle of Filth.
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by oriolid on Saturday October 16, 2021 @05:29PM (#28891732)
Skip could also mean "I like this song, but I want to hear something different at the moment".
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by Talanes on Saturday October 16, 2021 @11:47PM (#28893777)
Sometimes it even means "I love this song, but I'm trying to listen to something new."
Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by sethgecko on Saturday October 16, 2021 @10:36PM (#28893476)
> there needs to be a way to distinguish between a user enjoying a song and the user not paying attention

There is a way to do this, the signal is adding the song to your favourites or a playlist

Re:Dislike button would improve Spotify's recommendations by homami on Sunday October 17, 2021 @03:17AM (#28894596)
Deezer has added a "don't recommend this song again" button. I used a couple of times only but I feel that my recommendations have been indeed improved.

Before, I had to skip the songs that I did not like, and Deezer was keep putting them back in my 'Flow' a few days later. That was pretty annoying.