Well, it does work as a phone; you can call telephone numbers with it.

But that's not what you mean when you say "phone" is it? The word "phone" is synonymous at this point with "mini computer."

What if it were sold as a phone with a big caveat, loudly announced, that said "this thing is for tinkerers and developers and is not ready for causal daily use"? That's the thing, it is marketed that way. You bought something you didn't want, you want what it is going to be, and we are all very excited about it and a bit impatient, but we cannot blame the product for ourselves being impatient.

It literally says "Beta" for each phone that is for sale.

https://pine64.com/product-category/pinephone/?v=0446c16e2e6...

That’s the same as not expecting an ‘early access’ game to not actually be a game.

You go into beta when your shit works to work out the last bugs, not when you have a barely functional MVP.

It's not the Pine organization's fault that you have a different definition of "toy" and "phone" than they do - and it's definitely your fault that you didn't read the numerous prominent disclaimers spread all across their site that the PinePhone is not a finished product.

I hear you both. I'm new to Linux, and when the Pinephone said it was for "advanced Linux users" I figured "how hard can it be?". I bought one and 24 hours later decided to pass it on. Turns out they really do mean "advanced"!

> This is the Beta Edition of the PinePhone. The pre-installed Manjaro with Plasma Mobile OS, that ships with this edition of the PinePhone, is a beta software build. This effectively means that while core functionality of the PinePhone still an ongoing effort. Thus, the device cannot considered a consumer-ready product.

They have always been honest about what it is for. It is your fault for not knowing that when ordering. A little research reveals plenty of people are using it as their daily phone, but all agree that there are rough edges to fix.

That's how I'm seeing this - as a mini linux computer with the ability to make calls and send text messages at some point in the future.

Just a linux computer with a cellular modem sounds amazing to me, tbh.

Then buy any of the 3 billion Android handsets. Most average $100 and were out of beta in 08'.

Android handsets aren't really linux boxes. I can't ssh into them, I can't write little python scripts, etc. An actual, general purpose, real foss portable phone factor computer will be amazing as it matures.

> I can't ssh into them

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.xnano.andr...

> I can't write little python scripts

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ru.iiec.pydroi...

And those don't even require an unlocked bootloader. If you do unlock, sky's the limit - it really is a general purpose portable computer then.

You can install termux and from there do all the normal SSH, python, linuxy stuff you like.

There's nothing new here. I remember having those features in the Nokia N900 in 09. I think this product is grossly overpriced for a cheap generic Android phone loaded with a beta Linux distro. In Shenzhen they'll sell you a case of 50 for $400. Save your money or buy a Quest 2.

Except this one is going to run a close to mainline kernel pretty soon and those android phones will be stuck in the last decade, forever.

How soon is other software on it is usable? Kernel really doesn't matter too much if rest is unusable...

It took Google tens of thousands of paid top tier developer hours to make Android useable. I'm betting never. In a year or two there's going to be some nasty passive aggressive apology blaming the woes of the world for why it couldn't happen and these guys will go home with their big sack of money. Seriously you want a shit Android ARM phone loaded with a beta Linux distro? Let's order a lot from Shenzhen and everyone can pay the $50 it's worth.

"It took Google tens of thousands of paid top tier developer hours to make Android useable."

Is that a guess, or a fact?

Then Shenzhen manufactures should open source device drivers.

> I have some standards for my toys though. If it’s sold as a phone, it should actually work as a phone (even a shitty one).

It is sold as Phone hardware with explicit remarks about software being a community effort and that you load it with whatever you like.

Does someone who sells you a PC (HW) promise you that the software you load on it later will be bug-free? Of course not. That’s not a hardware-matter.

Same here with Pine64 and the PinePhone. They’re selling you hardware. And that’s it.

> Does someone who sells you a PC (HW) promise you that the software you load on it later will be bug-free?

No, but if someone was selling PCs with super buggy software that regularly crashes your OS or prevents everyday functionality from working, people would be returning those PCs en masse, even if the hardware maker wasn't responsible for the software at all.[0] Even if you only "sell" the hardware, customers expect the full package to work.

That's not to say I agree with all the complaints here, though; this case is different because Pine64 has numerous disclaimers and warnings on the website, and they are very up front and honest about the viability of the PinePhone as a daily driver.

[0]: Whenever I hear non-techy friends complain about system instability, they pretty consistently blame the computer itself, not Windows or whatever software is likely actually causing their frustration.

> No, but if someone was selling PCs with super buggy software

What you’re clearing missing is that they are not selling you software.

They are selling you open, unlocked hardware to run software on, with no promises/liabilities about the software. Just like Intel, AMD, ARM, MSI, Asus, Kingston and a lot of other hardware suppliers. They even explicitly state this when you buy the phone.

They are explicitly not selling you a combined hardware/software package like Apple does with the iPhone or OEMs are doing with Android.

How can you then complain about this later?

Edit: You might even say that this combined HW/SW appliance-model applied by the rest of the smartphone market is the exact thing they are fighting against.

They are selling HW as HW, leaving users free to run the software they prefer.