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Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by denton-scratch on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:06AM (#28876842)
"Dying" is a bit of an under-statement. A white dwarf is to all intents and purposes dead. It has no source of energy, and radiates only because of stored heat.

That heat dissipates so slowly that (AIUI) no white dwarf in the universe has yet had time to cool down enough to stop radiating (i.e. the universe does not yet contain any black dwarves).

So a star that is in the process of collapsing into a white dwarf could reasonably be said to be "dying". Once it's collapsed, it's dead.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by Voloskaya on Friday October 15, 2021 @10:33AM (#28878089)
"Dying" is not referring to the state of the star today, but to the process of death: the planet survived while it's star was dying, which is the interesting bit of the story.
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by denton-scratch on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:57AM (#28879184)
Agreed.

To survive in orbit around a WD is not a remarkable achievement - you just carry on orbiting forever (roughly). Orbiting a red giant would be pretty interesting, though - the RG has an indistinct surface, its diameter and luminosity varies, and it emits a lot of material as wind.

To survive in orbit around a neutron star would be another thing again. Neutron stars have intense magnetic fields, and spin rather quickly, resulting in a rotating field that is wrapped around on itself. That in effect creates a particle accelerator, driving electron flows (the electrons were all expelled when the NS collapsed) with extreme energies.

Short of hanging around near an exploding supernova, I can't imagine a more hostile environment.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by hinkley on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:13PM (#28880198)
Would the magnetic fields of a neutron star create a tidal locking effect through eddy currents in the planet’s core, boosting it into a larger orbit and slowing the spin of the star? Seems like a giant inside out induction motor.

I wonder what the band of survival is, where the planet doesn’t get turned to Swiss cheese first.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by denton-scratch on Friday October 15, 2021 @02:13PM (#28881022)
I have no idea what the neighbourhood of a neutron star is like, nor what the effects of such intense fields might be. This is theoretical physics and cosmology. I'm not competent even to speculate.

Yes, I get the "induction motor" idea. With fields and voltages that intense, I guess just about anything becomes conductive.

[Edit] I don't know whether those field strengths are consistent with atoms continuing to be atoms - I guess there must be some range beyond which a thing like a planet could maintain its integrity. But (guessing wildly) I would expect there to be a region around a neutron star within which it is impossible for atoms to exist.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by justshowpost on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:13PM (#28883192)
Newly discovered Click-Bayitt type stars
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by JohnJamesRambo on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:37AM (#28877541)
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by uyaij on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:57AM (#28877727)
> By damping trash onto the surface of the white dwarf, one could harvest its gravitational binding energy from the emitted electromagnetic radiation at nearly the yield of nuclear fuel.

This sounds interesting, how would such a method of power generation work?

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by jerf on Friday October 15, 2021 @10:09AM (#28877851)
Well, that very nearly is the method of power generation. It would presumably be paired with some sort of Dyson sphere around the white dwarf. (Remember that a "Dyson sphere" isn't necessarily a solid shell, but just some configuration of matter where no matter which direction the energy goes it is intercepted by something.)

You may also enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-O-Qdh7VvQ which is a minutephysics on black hole power using much the same principles but attaining yet higher efficiencies.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by FredPret on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:26PM (#28880362)
So we would decelerate the trash, it hits the white dwarf, gets crushed, and then undergoes various nuclear transformations resulting in energy output we would then capture with our Dyson swarm?
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by justshowpost on Friday October 15, 2021 @05:28PM (#28883326)
Sorry, but it has to be rigid to be a sphere. Angular momentum is a bitch!

PS: Dyson Spheres is misnomer, Olaf Stapledon should be credited for this idea (Star Maker 1937)

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by jerf on Saturday October 16, 2021 @12:01PM (#28888787)
That's more about why "sphere" is a misnomer that leads people to think the idea requires a large rigid shell than a problem with the idea. You can create configurations of matter that continuously and completely englobe a star without it being a rigid sphere. What you can't do is make it so that any other configuration is always receiving sunlight at all times because no part of it ever in shadow, but that is not a requirement to capture all energy from a star, that's merely an engineering question around efficiency.

The result may not be literally a rigid sphere as people think of it, but if the orbits are packed tightly together enough it'll look plenty "sphere-like" from the next star system over.

A rigid Dyson sphere is probably impossible, and its utility is not entirely clear. Making a Dyson swarm around a star is merely a lot of work, and also has the advantage of immediately paying benefits as soon as the very first satellite is launched.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by subroutine on Saturday October 16, 2021 @06:31AM (#28886884)
I've read somewhere that we now have a ton of junk satellites orbiting earth, and if they happen to crash into each other it could set off a chain reaction that creates a satellite-debris shell around the entire earth, roughly resembling a non-rigid sphere. Is that true?
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by denton-scratch on Saturday October 16, 2021 @07:32AM (#28887137)
That's roughly the story in the movie Gravity.

Collisions between orbital junk are most likely to happen between objects in the same orbit. And most junk is in some roughly equatorial orbit. So I'd expect the resulting debris to end up in roughly the same orbit, so that the debris would form a sort of fuzzy disk - not a sphere. I wouldn't expect to observe much debris over the North Pole.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by m1n1 on Friday October 15, 2021 @02:32PM (#28881286)
Is "damping" a technical term, distinct from "dumping"? The article uses it more than once so it seems deliberate...
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by saltcured on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:31PM (#28882824)
Damping is generally a technique which reduces, slows, or restricts a system. It is not a synonym for dumping. We have old, related terms like the "damper" on a fireplace, which I suspect may invoke a more basic analogy of putting water on wood fuel, i.e. making it damp and slower to burn.

In modern usage, "damping" usually refers to a drag or parasitic affect in some oscillatory system, but it does not have to be oscillatory. It can be other drag effects that convert energy, with a usual assumption that it will bring the system to a new equilibrium. An object falling through the atmosphere can be considered to have its fall dampened by the air drag, converging towards its terminal velocity.

I am not familiar with all the physics involved in falling towards/into such a star, so I do not know if there are field effects which would cause damping of the fall prior to impact of the trash with an actual surface, similar to the atmospheric descent towards earth. I also wonder if they imagine the orbital system is being damped to allow the trash to impact the star, by bleeding off tangential velocity to decay the orbit.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by orra on Friday October 15, 2021 @04:21PM (#28882692)
Damping is a physics or maths term. To damp means to (steadily?) decrease the amplitude of a wave or oscillation.
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by Koshkin on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:39AM (#28878940)
An informative piece, thanks for sharing. (Being tidally locked complicates the situation, I think.)
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by rapsey on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:33AM (#28877025)
How would we see black dwarves?
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by Ericson2314 on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:36AM (#28877042)
If there were bright things behind them

The universe is young, a lot of stuff hasn't happened yet. It wouldn't be surprising if we are about the earliest life of this sort that could exist.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by vlovich123 on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:51AM (#28877667)
I thought the cosmological expansion theory of the standard model was falling apart calling into question the Big Bang theory. If that’s the case, then are we sure we have a good handle on the age of the universe?
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by garblegarble on Friday October 15, 2021 @10:25AM (#28877998)
Do you have any links where I can read more about that? That's fascinating and I wasn't aware, and I evidently am not using the right search terms to find out more
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by Taek on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:47AM (#28879036)
Maybe unrelated but YouTube has been throwing a lot of faux science and astronomy at me lately. Youtubers reading controversial papers presented as indisputable even when there's no scientific consensus at all on the results.
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by whatshisface on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:33PM (#28879671)
It's depressing to think about, but for many intents and purposes fake space facts are just as good as true space facts.
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by 6502nerdface on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:02PM (#28880077)
Especially for purposes of monetizing YouTube videos.
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by doublepg23 on Friday October 15, 2021 @07:08PM (#28884179)
I believe they’re referring to the “crisis in cosmology”. I’m purely a layman, but I found some videos useful. I believe at least PBS Space-Time [1] is well regarded in physics circles (for laymen explanations.). I found the other one [2] to be more digestible though.

[1] https://youtu.be/72cM_E6bsOs

[2] https://youtu.be/0sfvQ_fsil4

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by contravariant on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:58AM (#28877743)
Depends on your perspective I suppose. Most of the stars have already formed and star formation will slowly grind to a halt in a few billion years.
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by Ericson2314 on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:27PM (#28879588)
old and young universe then :)

At least, I can understand visualize the time scale of the universe a lot better than I can visual the length scale. Speed of light doesn't feel like 1/1 to humans!

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by Chris2048 on Friday October 15, 2021 @08:42AM (#28877093)
A BD is still hotter than background temp, so you could maybe see faint IR, and you could initially find it as a result of its mass if there are nearby objects orbiting (although now less illuminated), or simply transitioning in front of other stars (I guess that's how they find wandering planets?).

Alternatively, map all the white dwarves, then wait long enough, then look again..

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by kadoban on Friday October 15, 2021 @09:28AM (#28877458)
You'd probably also be able to see white dwarves that were on their way to being black (whatever the threshold is).
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by Chris2048 on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:14PM (#28880221)
Given there are no BDs (so they are theoretical) maybe there isn't a threshold defined?

A WD will slowly cool to a BD over Trillions of years, so it's all linear. Funnily enough, they are probably every shade of red/brown in-between - but "brown dwarves" are usually reserved for objects that never where "proper" hydrogen-fusing stars, but are large enough to fuse deuterium.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by kijin on Friday October 15, 2021 @12:20PM (#28879487)
There's no hard threshold, the star just fades gradually from #FFF to #000.

A fully black dwarf would be so cold it would be indistinguishable from cosmic background radiation, but that's going to take at least a trillion times longer than the current age of the universe. Not just slightly longer.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by kadoban on Friday October 15, 2021 @01:02PM (#28880084)
Right. I'm just saying that if the are any black dwarfs (which there should not be), we should be able to find ~arbitrarily dim ones as well, down to our ability to see.
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by dredmorbius on Friday October 15, 2021 @11:59AM (#28879197)
Gravitational lensing, most likely.

Possibly through gravitational interactions with non-dwarf stars in the same system.

There not being any yet makes either method somewhat more challenging.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by postalrat on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:47PM (#28884020)
Next you are going to say that a phone is dead unless it's being charged.
Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by denton-scratch on Friday October 15, 2021 @06:58PM (#28884104)
Please explain how a "charger" for a white dwarf might work! I mean, you could just chuck a huge ball of hydrogen at it; that might work, but it'd be easier to just bundle together two balls of hydrogen and make a new star.

I think I'd expect a charger to restore a phone to something like its as-new functionality. I've never heard of any mechanism that could change a white dwarf into not a white dwarf, other than extreme age, or being merged with another object.

Re:We've spotted a planet surviving its dying star by postalrat on Friday October 15, 2021 @10:30PM (#28885083)
The star gets charged up then gets to live a much longer life as a white dwarf.

You haven't been as-new since the day you were born and we both agree you are still in your life.