News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by roenxi on Sunday October 10, 2021 @01:17AM (#28815942)
We might look at these stats and think that they demonstrate a safe and effective vaccine. But there is still a very real risk that won't stop the government of Canada implementing a full China-style surveillance system tracking system that monitor where every citizen is, when and sets up all the necessary infrastructure to block someone's ability to travel.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by AlexandrB on Sunday October 10, 2021 @01:31AM (#28816006)
This is a bizarre comment. What does the efficacy of Canada's improvised mixed vaccination "plan" have to do with implementing a dictatorship? And have you noticed how big and poorly connected rural Canada is? It's pretty easy to get out of range of cell towers and effectively not be trackable. How is the Canadian government going to cover the country with enough infrastructure to monitor where every citizen is in a realistic time frame?
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by ipaddr on Sunday October 10, 2021 @02:29AM (#28816258)
The tracking is through vaccine checkins via vaccine passports. Boarding any travel method in Canada now requires a vaccine checkin.

These passports will remain a long time.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by coronqueue on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:17AM (#28816454)
Vaccine passports in Canada are implemented using the https://smarthealth.cards/ standard. The QR codes are verifiable offline using digital signatures.

The app used in BC is open source and available on Github: https://github.com/bcgov/BCVAX-iOS https://github.com/bcgov/BCVAX-Android

It works just fine with the device in airplane mode, and does not maintain a record of the QR codes it has verified.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by ipaddr on Sunday October 10, 2021 @02:16PM (#28820684)
Let's look at the details a little closer.

You download a QR code from the government. You are identified at this point and linked to your test results given your QR code.

Those open source clients are for BC only. Assuming the app store version matches those clients that ensures you are not being track in private businesses during a vaccine check.

This doesn't ensure the federal system is using the same clients or other provinces.

This doesn't ensure a vaccine passport check before boarding a train by a government official doesn't link your travel/location.

The only thing we are sure is this will protect tracking at the private level in BC if the business has airplane mode on and both have downloaded and built the client themselves.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by coronqueue on Sunday October 10, 2021 @06:13PM (#28822469)
In BC, secretly engaging in tracking would be both illegal and contrary to public policy. The system was reviewed by https://www.oipc.bc.ca/ as part of the rollout, and it's privacy-preserving properties were an essential part of the system being deemed acceptable.

There are multiple independent open source implementations of the SMART Health Card QR standard. It's really just some JSON + compression/encoding/digital signature.

The approach I have described is being used across Canada, and based on what has been indicated so far, this is in fact the intended direction of the federal government.

Vaccine passport checks are not conducted by government officials. They are conducted by the private businesses where the checks take place.

iOS 15 includes "app privacy report" functionality, and if the government were secretly submitting a different version to the app store than they claim they are (with secret reporting of scan data back to the mothership included in the app store builds), they would be trivially caught by anybody using this feature. It would show up in the network traffic logs that are available for anybody to inspect.

Mobile applications are also not that difficult to decompile to identify hidden functionality.

We can both be pretty sure that no tracking is taking place, and that it would be unrealistic for this system to be used for tracking purposes without that becoming a matter of public knowledge rather quickly.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by ipaddr on Sunday October 10, 2021 @11:44PM (#28824424)
At all travel points trains/planes the government will require a vaccine passport check. This check will require the person to provide id to match against the vaccine passport information. At this point your information/location are verified and entered into a government system.

As for tracking by private companies. At your local pizza shop your location may not be tracked through the open source clients you list but at larger venues the opportunity for information gathering/sharing is possible. Previously one could buy a ticket to a game from someone outside now everyone eventing must identify themselves.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by chroem- on Sunday October 10, 2021 @02:05AM (#28816151)
I'm not clear on what GP's connection to vaccinations is, but for what it's worth, Australia has recently implemented some very authoritarian covid policies despite it being sparsely populated. People are only allowed to leave their homes for two hours a day and everyone is required to take pictures of themselves inside their homes at regular intervals to prove their location to the police. Violators are being shot with rubber bullets, and yet despite the severity of these measures, the total number of deaths in each state can be counted on your fingers.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by jwilliams on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:47AM (#28816586)
There are some half-truths in there, but otherwise what you're saying is misleading.

For example, there is a (quite small) trial of facial recognition for home quarantine of international travelers. Now that's a topic worthy of discussion - But it's an extraordinary leap to say everyone is taking pictures of themselves (i.e that's just not true at all).

It's similar for most of your assertions.

There have been quite a number of strict rules in different parts of Australia at different times. Most are now being wound back in line with vaccination rates.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by chroem- on Sunday October 10, 2021 @04:06AM (#28816678)
It looks like you are correct that the surveillance app is limited to anyone who has crossed state or national borders in the last two weeks. That being said, the Australian government has not relinquished its emergency powers, and is instead pushing for additional powers such as mandatory internet ID.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by nitrogen on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:21AM (#28816464)
everyone is required to take pictures of themselves inside their homes at regular intervals

That is... bizarre. Very bizarre. Do you have a link to read more?

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by chroem- on Sunday October 10, 2021 @04:01AM (#28816660)
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by BigJono on Sunday October 10, 2021 @05:36AM (#28817077)
"violators" aren't being shot with rubber bullets. Nazi fuckwits are being shot with rubber bullets after being given hours to leave their violent protests of their own free will before attacking police with projectiles and charging at them.

I watched the entire thing live, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. The Guardian also did an expose on the instigators of those protests are accessed a group chat where the organisers were discussing how to slowly introduce the "Jewish question" to the crowd they'd managed to rile up.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by chroem- on Sunday October 10, 2021 @06:50AM (#28817387)
They're trade unionists. Not exactly the type of people I would put at the top of my suspected "nazi fuckwits" list.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by SideburnsOfDoom on Sunday October 10, 2021 @09:58AM (#28818462)
Well, perhaps they need to move up your list now.

The "anti-lockdown protests" have consistently attracted some very unpleasant kooks, cranks and opportunists, from the "5g mind control" lot to the "international banker conspiracy" lot. It's omni-nutty. Piers Corbyn is a regular at the UK ones. In the US, I am sure that all roads lead to QAnon and their anti-Semitic totalising conspiracy theory. The intensity and nature of crankery is shifting.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by nitrogen on Sunday October 10, 2021 @11:46AM (#28819289)
I'm sure all those "kooks, cranks and opportunists" had breakfast, too. Should we start calling French toast a conspiracy? Last year when people (in the US) were protesting, violent protests were called "mostly peaceful" because it was claimed that there was a peaceful majority and an opportunistic minority. Why be so eager to do the opposite now and taint the majority with the odd few?

In other words, someone off the rails agreeing with a large group on one issue doesn't mean the whole group is off the rails.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by BigJono on Monday October 11, 2021 @10:30AM (#28828719)
This is specifically why, in the case of these exact protests, the police gave the crowd ample opportunity to leave the area without being arrested, around 5pm, after allowing them to protest peacefully the entire day.

Half the crowd left, then the remaining crowd pumped themselves up and attacked the police after being peaceful the entire day.

Seems to me like the reasonable ones left and the remainders were assholes. The extremists were the ones being shot with rubber bullets. Anyone that wasn't an extremist and still got shot is an idiot, they had every opportunity to voice their opinion peacefully.

But all I hear from the fucking yanks on HN is them projecting their own politics onto what's happening over here. There's so much misinformation in threads like these and everyone laps it up like idiots. Like I said before, I watched the entire day live on my second monitor, from livestreams run by the protestors themselves. I got their viewpoint, which shows clearly what happened. Whereas the people trying to argue against policy brutality here are doing so with Fox News rhetoric, not with facts.

We need more eyes on the police, at all times. But we need that scrutiny to come with facts. I have no love for Victoria Police, but I'm sick of them and our liberal (small L) government being the focal point of a debate half way across the world that completely misses the mark. HN seems like it skews left on privacy and surveillance issues, but because of it's American focus, the people here just spew dangerous rhetoric that risks cutting the head off the lesser evil, when we have an ultra conservative federal government pushing the most authoritarian tech surveillance laws in the western world. They're on opposite sides here. As long as there's no realistic chance of getting the average person to vote for a third party, if it's all the same, I'd prefer if you all stop letting an American media invasion turn us into the 4th fucking reich.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by SideburnsOfDoom on Sunday October 10, 2021 @01:30PM (#28820236)
> someone off the rails agreeing with a large group on one issue doesn't mean the whole group is off the rails.

No, it means that the "nazi fuckwits" and "off the rails people" are _recruiting_ and doing so where the audience is worked up and receptive to their radicalisation.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by nitrogen on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:29PM (#28821219)
What should we expect when we are pushing any disagreement whatsoever out of the mainstream? I was vaccinated the day I was able to be, but if I started browbeating everyone else around me who was slower, they'd just cut off contact and start associating with people who weren't total jerks to them.

If the only ones who are listening to the disagreeing moderates are radicals, we should expect an increase in radicalization.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by SideburnsOfDoom on Monday October 11, 2021 @02:05AM (#28825239)
Are you saying that it's the fault of the groups not directly present, we can blame the moderates who aren't there?

You'll either eject the cranks or become them. The (possibly apocryphal) tale is "As we say in Germany, if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis."

This dynamic has happened many many times on the left, with the far left cranks.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by angelzen on Sunday October 10, 2021 @04:08AM (#28816685)
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/australias-two-la...

From what I can garner, there are such systems on trial, though as of Sept 16 the trials were on a voluntary basis.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by tinus_hn on Sunday October 10, 2021 @06:49AM (#28817384)
Why would you run trials of this Big Brother system if you weren’t considering making it mandatory?
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by angelzen on Sunday October 10, 2021 @10:12AM (#28818558)
There are facts and there is my personal opinion. Personally I find this technology extremely worrisome and there is a good chance they will make it mandatory before long.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by bregma on Sunday October 10, 2021 @07:39AM (#28817631)
Why do you think the vaccines contain so many 5G microchips? The hurry to get everyone double-vaxxed even caused a global silicon chip shortage.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by _3u10 on Sunday October 10, 2021 @02:54AM (#28816363)
I live in a town of 10,000. I have fiber optic internet from my ISP. Less than 500m from my house is a city run fiber network.

I checked the places I've lived for the last 10 years in Vancouver, none of them are eligible for fiber optic.

Rural Canada is much better connected than major cities.

It's not easy to not be trackable in Canada, every highway of any significance has a highway cam. If you really want to live off grid in a tent I suppose you could evade tracking.

For 99% of people, they are easily tracked. Tracking isn't about 100% compliance its about 99% compliance.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by roenxi on Sunday October 10, 2021 @01:41AM (#28816048)
1. They aren't implementing a dictatorship - Canada is a parliamentary democracy, they have regular elections.

2. The justification for the tracking system will be that the vaccine isn't good enough to protect people without mandatory vaccinations.

3. Why would there need to be tracking in remote parts of rural Canada? There is basically nobody there. It is rural. How many people do you even know who live outside the range of cell phone towers?

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by klyrs on Sunday October 10, 2021 @01:40AM (#28816045)
> ...full China-style surveillance system tracking system that monitor where every citizen is...

Got any sources indicating that this is in the works?

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by roenxi on Sunday October 10, 2021 @01:55AM (#28816112)
They're setting up restrictions on public (and private) transport [0]. Work is being done to support using OHS as a lever to push vaccination [1] which is going to require centralised databases integrated into business processes. Toronto is setting up systems to verify that everyone is vaccinated at gatherings of 1,000+ people [2].

This is setting the infrastructure to implement a social credit system. It is a small step from here to to full thing. The intent is the same and the tools are similar.

[0] https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-canada/news/2021/10/manda...

[1] https://www.ohscanada.com/opinions/mandatory-vaccination-pol...

[2] https://www.hrreporter.com/opinion/canadian-hr-law/the-movem...

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by SECProto on Sunday October 10, 2021 @02:50AM (#28816345)
...the step from "vaccine requirements on federally regulated transport services" is a hell of a lot closer to "drivers license to operate a car" or "recognized ID to board a plane" than it is to "full China-style surveillance system tracking system that monitor where every citizen is". I think your interpretation of this is hyperbolic.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by roenxi on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:13AM (#28816440)
If holding employment, catching a train or attending a festival are conditional on having a drivers license then I'm unhappy about that too. The explicit purpose of this is to exclude people from society if they disagree with the government's cost/benefit calculations.

There is evidence in the article that the vaccines reduce the risks of COVID by 2-3 orders of magnitude, which gets it into the range of a bad flu. We know that a lot of people have already had COVID and pose a lower risk than someone who is vaccinated. These compliance systems are going to do more harm than good. It is never going to work out well when the government brings in authoritarian compliance measures to protect a majority from a minority who are being accused of causing all the problems of today. That script has been put into production before.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by coronqueue on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:24AM (#28816473)
Where is your data to support your extraordinary claim that "a lot of people have already had COVID and pose a lower risk than someone who is vaccinated"?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-v...

"The CDC researchers found that people previously infected but unvaccinated were 2.34 times more likely to get reinfected than people who were previously infected and fully vaccinated."

"The researchers saw even more variability when they looked at neutralizing antibodies—those known to bind to the virus and prevent it from infecting cells. Neutralizing antibody levels in recovered people varied over a range of 40,000-fold, and up to 20 percent of people didn't have any detectable level of neutralizing antibody."

For vaccines, we have data showing they are highly effective:

http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/Vaccine_Effec...

We have data showing reduction in transmission as a result of vaccination.

We don't have comparable data for people who have merely been previously infected, and in fact the data we do have seems to provide evidence that they pose higher risk. The immune system is not as reliable when it is having to fight off an infection while mounting its response vs when it is able to mount an immune response while not under attack from the virus.

We're quite happy here with our freedom to go to a restaurant or attend a festival without exposing ourselves to the risk of being around unvaccinated people.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by angelzen on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:37AM (#28816535)
I wish people stopped the over-reliance on antibody studies. I get it, it's fun to play with cool technology and great to get papers published. OTOH, antibodies are just a part of the immune system, decay exponentially post infection / vaccination and there is no golden formula to correlate antibody levels with infection risk.
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by roenxi on Sunday October 10, 2021 @03:37AM (#28816531)
Your source is comparing reinfection risk. Reinfection risk is very low [0]. It can't drive a pandemic.

And, fairly critically, it is crazy to start isolating people from social life over that low reinfection risk. You've been exposed to people who are unvaccinated for all sort of dangerous diseases through your life and nobody has tried to lock them out of society for that.

EDIT I suppose I'll throw in here this isn't about whether vaccination is good or not. Anyone who hasn't made up their mind at this point isn't persuaded by evidence. This is about how to treat people who make choices that the government disagrees with. Locking them off aeroplanes isn't the way.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8209951/

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by mthoms on Sunday October 10, 2021 @12:33PM (#28819710)
>This is about how to treat people who make choices that the government disagrees with

I hate to tell you this. Putting restrictions on non-vaccinated people is not some Government conspiracy. It's literally what the vast majority of the people of Canada want for their safety. That includes your neighbours and (possibly) your family members.

That's what the government is supposed to do.

Sure, you could make some "tyranny of the majority" argument here but in the case of anti-vaxers, you'll be hard pressed to find any sympathy from most Canadians.

It's not a government conspiracy. It's the will of the people it represents. I know that doesn't make nearly as good a narrative, but it's the hard truth.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by klyrs on Sunday October 10, 2021 @06:56PM (#28822715)
It's not like we didn't do this with measles, mumps, polio, smallpox, rubella, tuberculosis...
Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by roenxi on Monday October 11, 2021 @01:35AM (#28825050)
Something being popular is no guarantee at all that it is a good idea. The US just left Afghanistan this year, for example. Anyone claiming that 20 year debacle was a mistake going in to it was not in for a pleasant time - but they were right. The Patriot Act is much more long-lived than Bin Laden.

The worst time to do this is hastily and when people are feeling scared; these are some serious bridges being crossed. The systems being set up to deal with people who aren't scared of the coronavirus are going to be permanent and are a very decisive step in reshaping Western culture using the model trailed in China.

Re:Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching Covid-... by bserge on Sunday October 10, 2021 @05:59AM (#28817177)
No doubt it will be used for that. Covid gave governments the perfect excuse to test out restriction systems, and they work.