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Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by cjensen on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:19PM (#28793965)
When CEOs move, they often move their headquarters closer to where they live. Somehow Tesla managed to survive all the problems of California until shortly after Musk moved to Texas. Folks talking about the advantages and disadvantages of California vs Texas may be overthinking this.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by pmorici on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:28PM (#28794045)
Wonder if it had anything to do with this…

https://mobile.twitter.com/unusual_whales/status/14462517624...

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by tshaddox on Thursday October 07, 2021 @09:47PM (#28794751)
A childish Twitter exchange from May 2020? I doubt it.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by swiley on Friday October 08, 2021 @12:12AM (#28795670)
For anyone else I'd be skeptical.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by rbolla on Friday October 08, 2021 @04:56PM (#28804091)
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by andyxor on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:32PM (#28794091)
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by semiquaver on Thursday October 07, 2021 @11:12PM (#28795332)
> federal court
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by andyxor on Thursday October 07, 2021 @11:27PM (#28795425)
San Francisco jury
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by jansan on Friday October 08, 2021 @04:29AM (#28796956)
On the list of most expensive tweets of all time, the one by Lorena Gonzales must be in the top ten.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by darawk on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:37PM (#28794133)
I mean, you could just as easily argue that the problems of California are what caused his move to Texas, as simply testing the waters for the move of the HQ.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by asdff on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:42PM (#28794187)
The main problem for musk in this case being his tax burden, since he is otherwise entirely insulated from every other issue affecting most californians.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by darawk on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:47PM (#28794236)
His tax situation really has nothing to do with it. If he sells his Tesla shares, he's still going to owe CA tax. But he never has to sell any Tesla shares, he can just buy hedges against them and take out loans. If you have sufficient capital assets, you never have to actual earn any "income" or generate any "capital gains" if you don't want to.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by skissane on Thursday October 07, 2021 @09:14PM (#28794490)
> But he never has to sell any Tesla shares, he can just buy hedges against them and take out loans

So he takes out a $1 billion loan, and he offers $1 billion in stock as a security, and then also buys a futures contract (or a put option) on his $1 billion of stock to lock in the current price, so if the stock goes down in value over the life of the loan, the lender doesn't lose their security? And then when the loan falls due, he refinances – get a new loan using the same mechanism, and use it to repay the existing one? And he doesn't owe capital gains tax on the stock he uses as security, because he doesn't actually sell it?

I suppose though, you can't just go on refinancing forever. One day he will die, and then it will have to come out of his estate, and I guess his estate may pay the capital gains tax then? So it is really delaying paying tax, rather than getting out of it forever?

Unless, I suppose, he leaves the stock to a trust in his will, and transfers the loan to the trust too, and then the trust can continue this process long after he is gone? And maybe, if it is a charitable trust, even use some charitable tax exemption to get out of paying the tax permanently?

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by darawk on Friday October 08, 2021 @01:06AM (#28795934)
Yep, you've got it. The most beautiful part of the whole thing is the step up in basis for the estate. When you pass on your estate, the cost basis of all your assets get "stepped up" to the current market value. This means that if he passes on his estate to his children, they can then sell the shares to repay the loan with zero tax.

All this adds up to zero capital gains taxes being paid ever on the entire amount.

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by ant6n on Friday October 08, 2021 @04:26AM (#28796936)
How does the "step up" of the cost basis happen with paying any taxes at the same time?
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by darawk on Friday October 08, 2021 @04:43AM (#28797050)
I'm not sure I understand the question. The assets in your estate get their cost basis reset to the current market value when your estate is passed on. That means the capital gains in his shares disappear.

That being said, the estate tax would kick in for everything over 11m, so he'd have to use other tricks to work around that limitation.

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by ant6n on Sunday October 10, 2021 @01:49AM (#28816080)
There was a typo, with->without
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by martinald on Thursday October 07, 2021 @09:44PM (#28794718)
There will be interest on the loan. Probably fairly low given the collateral, but it won't be 0 (assuming this is not a sweetner from some investment bank that works a lot with Tesla/SpaceX).

If it's hedged you actually don't have any upside so you will always be 'underwater' on the loan assuming >0 interest rate.

If interest rates were higher, it probably wouldn't make sense to do this endless loan trick[1]. Say you get charged 5% on this loan or you could pay 30% cap gains. It would only take 5 years for the interest payments to outstrip the upfront hit on the tax.

1. This is very simplistic though, as likely the $1bn would be invested in some way that would kick off some return, probably enough to cover the interest.

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by quickthrowman on Thursday October 07, 2021 @11:50PM (#28795558)
> I suppose though, you can't just go on refinancing forever. One day he will die, and then it will have to come out of his estate, and I guess his estate may pay the capital gains tax then?

This is the best part. The cost basis for assets is stepped up on death to the price of the asset on the day that the decedent .. became the decedent. That becomes the cost basis for any capital gains tax the heir would owe if they sold the asset.

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by kgc on Friday October 08, 2021 @12:50AM (#28795849)
The estate tax is 40% above about 11 million. Soon to be about 5 million.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by tshaddox on Thursday October 07, 2021 @09:50PM (#28794771)
Also he could just pay whatever “high” taxes there are and I’m confident he would still have enough money to buy whatever he needs plus plenty of fun toys. He’ll be alright, I’m confident of it!
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by darawk on Friday October 08, 2021 @04:43AM (#28797054)
My point is just that moving because of high taxes doesn't make sense for him, even if you think he cares about the money. He doesn't have to pay it unless he wants to.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by asdff on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:57PM (#28794329)
He has options he will be selling soon and they are taxed where they will be sold, in this case texas.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by kadoban on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:53PM (#28794291)
He's a billionare, he's insulated from tax burdens as well.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by asdff on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:56PM (#28794319)
Doesn't mean he wants to pay them. Look at Joe Rogan doing just this to avoid heavy taxes on the spotify deal.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by xoa on Thursday October 07, 2021 @09:17PM (#28794508)
>I mean, you could just as easily argue that the problems of California are what caused his move to Texas

Who knows. But the biggest fundamental problem for California here honestly is geography: Boca Chica is the best single land based potential BEO spaceport in the continental US, simple as that. That's why SpaceX is there. As close to the equator as they can get, with a lot of water in front of most of the launch paths they want, and no urban buildup there. For the small percentage of polar orbits they'll want to do there will remain Vandenberg, or eventually converted oil rigs for sea launch, but the vast majority of SpaceX's cadence for the foreseeable future will be Starship going to more standard orbits where the bulk of Starlink will exist or eventually beyond Earth's orbit for trips to Mars.

Sure taxes and all the typical rigamarole that typically comes up in these discussions might have weighed a little one way or another, and in the vast majority of CEO/HQ moves weigh quite a bit. But to the extent that SpaceX is the biggest guiding unified dream of Elon Musk, and given the constraints of logistics, economics and the physics of orbital launch, it basically had to be there. Which means he has to be there. Which means it's a lot easier even for someone with a private jet if the HQ of his other big enterprise is around 300mi away nearly due north in the same TZ vs ~1650mi west.

If for some reason the jobs situation and housing was just perfectly impossible in Texas maybe he would have sucked it up but even then I doubt it given his (and Tesla's) resources. At the end of the day like everyone else he can't buy more than 24 hours in a day. He can buy more efficient use of them.

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by random314 on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:44PM (#28794204)
Musk had billions of dollars in performance based stocks vesting over these years.

The simplest reason for moving is avoiding billions of dollars in California state income taxes.

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by darawk on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:48PM (#28794247)
No it isn't. CA will still try to tax those shares if and when he decides to liquidate them. However, Musk does not ever need to liquidate any shares. If he never wants to pay any tax, all he has to do is buy a hedge against the shares (thereby locking in a particular price) and take out loans against the now hedged asset. And like magic, he's got all the cash he could ever need and zero capital gains.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by random314 on Friday October 08, 2021 @02:34AM (#28796354)
Can I do this with my vesting stocks? I get tax deducted stocks, always!
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by darawk on Friday October 08, 2021 @03:42AM (#28796706)
You sure can. You just need to find a bank/broker/anyone willing to lend to you against them as collateral.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by jtsiskin on Thursday October 07, 2021 @10:00PM (#28794862)
…but how does he pay back those loans?
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by plorkyeran on Thursday October 07, 2021 @10:58PM (#28795243)
His estate pays them back when he dies. Inherited shares have their cost basis reset to the current value, so if his heirs sell them immediately there's no capital gains to be taxed.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by double_nan on Friday October 08, 2021 @12:34AM (#28795784)
The loan will be cheap but not free. The problem with shares is that their price can go down to zero in case of company bankruptcy. So there will be premium for that risk.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by darawk on Friday October 08, 2021 @01:02AM (#28795917)
Not really. His loan will be way way way way over-collateralized, and like I said, he can even hedge it perfectly. His cost will likely be about the RFR.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by narrator on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:43PM (#28794194)
The talk about wealth taxes was probably one of the reasons he decided to move. You want to get all the billionaires to move out of your state, just bring up wealth taxes.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by muzz on Thursday October 07, 2021 @10:26PM (#28795035)
Elon personally potentially saving billions in taxes might have a lot to do with both of those ie his move and then the company's move. As an investor in the company, I am concerned about that (that this change was done to benefit one person rather than the company).

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Elon-Musk-...

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by jillesvangurp on Friday October 08, 2021 @04:39AM (#28797018)
I'm a shareholder as well. I can see the value add of a friendlier tax regime for the company, its employees, and indeed its CEO, less bureaucracy, and access to clean energy that Texas has to offer over the Bay are. I see it in terms of share holder value. Overpaying for staff, infrastructure, housing, facilities, etc. and dealing with local government that is too inept to address even the most basic challenges (housing, water management, roads, electricity, etc.) is not share holder value.

They have big expansion plans and most of that is outside of California. So, I'd say this is a good move for them. They no longer need the Bay Area investors. That was always the main reason for being there. It was critical to them just a few years ago when they were struggling to survive. But they turned a corner and are now very profitable so they can cut loose from that safely.

Tesla is now a multinational and while California is still an important market for it, they have bigger markets that they are thinking about now where they are starting to operate huge factories as well. Fremont went from being the largest Tesla factory to being one of the older and smaller ones in a few years.

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by muzz on Monday October 11, 2021 @05:41PM (#28833433)
> They have big expansion plans and most of that is outside of California

You might want to tell Tesla that. They just added a ton of office space in Palo Alto: https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/10/08/tesla-agrees-to-big-o...

Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by muzz on Friday October 08, 2021 @12:02PM (#28800759)
This is why we have markets. This news is now public, and TSLA is down today, ie investors have decided it is worth less after the news than before it.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by jillesvangurp on Tuesday October 12, 2021 @02:39AM (#28836767)
Slightly up now. Tesla has been trending up throughout last quarter by about 150$, 50$ in the last month, and 10$ in the last week. It's now worth more than before the announcements. Not surprising considering another great quarter and the opening party for their Berlin factory last weekend. Of course most big investors would have factored in most of that news already long before any announcements would have been made.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by sixothree on Friday October 08, 2021 @07:38AM (#28798085)
Also he’s building a darn spaceport in the south most location in Texas. That’s might have something to do with it.
Re:Tesla’s headquarters will move to Austin by DSingularity on Thursday October 07, 2021 @08:37PM (#28794136)
Or maybe it takes years to make such a move but when it’s decided CEO’s get a head start.