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Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by jack_riminton on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:26AM (#28671018)
The official line is that there is a lack of truck drivers, which is mostly true because Brexit has prevented a lot of the foreign drivers from working
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by timellis-smith on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:37AM (#28671157)
Brexit may be a (small) part of it, but it certainly isn't the whole picture. Btw much of Europe faces a shortage of drivers as well.

There are a number of factors at play including delayed testing because of covid, relatively low wages, and perhaps drivers shifting to more local deliveries e.g. supermarkets post covid due to changing demand. I was speaking to a taxi driver who said the taxi industry was being decimated by this

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by petercooper on Monday September 27, 2021 @12:03PM (#28672424)
Brexit may be a (small) part of it, but it certainly isn't the whole picture. Btw much of Europe faces a shortage of drivers as well.

Yes, though Europe is a larger "network." I think it's a bit like Metcalfe's law. Even if the EU has similar shortages of labor or goods, the larger number of citizens and companies allows things to flow to and from wherever they're needed more easily. The UK is now a separate far smaller system no longer plugged into that larger network.

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by bayesian_horse on Monday September 27, 2021 @11:31AM (#28671901)
The supply of drivers is somewhat fungible, but it doesn't just multiply when demand is high and shrink when it is low.

Those are Human beings that have to be, in essence, "stolen away" from another job, in the case of high school graduates (or whatever you call them) from another potential career. That's why wage isn't the magic wand many people believe it to be. If one industry increases wages (provided they can afford it), another gets the short stick. Unless you "steal" workers from other countries. As the UK did/does successfully for example with health workers...

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by mpweiher on Monday September 27, 2021 @11:52AM (#28672221)
The rest of Europe has mostly projected driver shortages, and no acute shortages of drivers, let alone goods.

So yes, while there is a wider issue, the wider issue is not the current problem or the high-order bit.

Note also that UGKOV plans to address the driver shortage by offering to ease restrictions on non UK-based (i.e. EU) drivers.

So yes, this is totally due to Brexit.

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by handelaar on Monday September 27, 2021 @01:26PM (#28673546)
...the same non-UK-based drivers that it proposes to kick out of the country again on December 24th. And the same drivers that last year on December 24th it corralled onto a disused airport runway behind fences and locked the doors so they couldn't go anywhere while being kicked out of the country.

Hard to imagine why they might not be jumping at the chance to spend another Xmas with no access to sanitation or even food in a place that is run by people who abuse them publicly every day

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by bayesian_horse on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:33AM (#28671104)
It's definitely true that they lack truckers. They don't just grow on trees, and when a few tens of thousands leave, well...
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by kwhitefoot on Monday September 27, 2021 @11:52AM (#28672230)
There are hundreds of thousands of people in the UK with HGV licenses but only half of them driving.

This problem has been brewing for decades as the jobs have been outsourced to low cost countries and the drivers mercilessly exploited. Now that some economies have improved and COVID has hit a lot of those drivers are either unavailable or simply unwilling to travel so far and so long in horrible working conditions for so little reward.

Society needs to recalibrate the value of workers who do manual work. There really is no good reason why the average software developer should be paid more than an HGV driver while enjoying much better working conditions.

See https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Software_Developer/..., https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Heavy_%2F_Tractor-T..., https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Delivery_Driver/Hou...

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by mywittyname on Monday September 27, 2021 @01:46PM (#28673780)
> There really is no good reason why the average software developer should be paid more than an HGV driver while enjoying much better working conditions.

There really is. Computers will blindly obey orders 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and can be scaled pretty much indefinitely. So those capable of giving computers orders are in a position to do a large amount of important work, with little effort.

Truck drivers can only do a relatively small amount of work at a given time. Trucks have a limit to the volume of weight they can carry, and the speeds that they may travel to carry it. Thus, their work per hour is capped to a very modest amount. Since there's no real efficiencies to be gained, the only way to improve wages for drivers is to increase the cost of goods by a proportional amount.

Replacing fuel delivery via truck with fuel delivery via pipeline would make things much more efficient, but seems like a waste of resources given that EVs are taking off.

It's not fair, but it is reality. Any profession whose labor cannot be augmented by technological efficiencies is likely going to face the same economic realities. They either go up-market and serve only those who can pay reasonable prices for their services, they get their wages and status slashed in a cut-throat environment, or they are displaced by an inferior, machine-driven replacement.

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by hermitcrab on Monday September 27, 2021 @01:38PM (#28673680)
Britain treats it's HGV drivers like crap. Long unsociable hours, low status, lack of facilities and relatively low pay considering how responsible the job is. I was horried to find that some (all?) of them don't even get paid for their mandatory breaks. Why would anyone put up with that, if they had any choice?
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by bayesian_horse on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @01:17AM (#28679583)
The reason software developers get paid more is that it is a lot harder for an average person to become a software developer than it is to get an HGV license. Basically anybody not suffering from mental impairment could master the skills for that license. That is not true of software development, and it also takes longer.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by ceejayoz on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:46AM (#28671267)
I'd be leaving, too, if I'd spent Christmas stranded on an airfield. https://jalopnik.com/uk-airfield-becomes-worlds-largest-truc...
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by politelemon on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:42AM (#28671216)
> They don't just grow on trees,

Reminiscent of Teresa May's "magic money tree" comment

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by darrenf on Monday September 27, 2021 @12:39PM (#28672882)
I've genuinely no idea why this is phrase is most frequently associated with May. As best I can tell she was just regurgitating a line from her predecessor: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21694944
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by native_samples on Monday September 27, 2021 @11:39AM (#28672034)
That's actually not the official line. That's the line of the Road Hauliers Association. The government line was provided to the Telegraph yesterday, and goes like this:

- There is only really a "shortage" of about 100-150 tanker drivers in the entire country.

- The petrol shortage was caused by aforementioned hauliers association deliberately telling the press that there was about to be a massive fuel shortage. That wasn't true but triggered panic buying, provoking an artificial "crisis" that was used (successfully) to put pressure on the government to issue some visas to eastern European truckies.

- There are more vacancies for HGV drivers, but that's mostly due to a lockdown-induced backlog at the driver licensing authority, combined with many people who have HGV licenses not wanting to drive due to poor pay and conditions.

- Brexit isn't the cause of this (which at any rate came into effect at the start of the year), except via a rather tortuous route ... the people at the RHA who manipulated the public through the press are all notoriously and outspokenly anti-Brexit, and they unfortunately have a history of leaking, in fact their press guy is a former BBC journalist already known to the government for prior leaking. BBC is of course notoriously anti-Brexit culturally. Therefore it is very likely these people saw an opportunity to both make money by getting access back to cheap labour whilst simultaneously winning a propaganda victory by convincing everyone to blame Brexit.

- And in fact Brexit has allowed the government to rapidly adjust the criteria for licensing HGV drivers to help clear the backlog, which wouldn't otherwise have been possible under EU rules.

So that's the official line at the moment.

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by gm3dmo on Monday September 27, 2021 @12:39PM (#28672884)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/924574.stm interesting that in 2000 the panic was sparked by an active measure, e.g. a physical blockade of refineries, this time round it only took a leaked document.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by heywherelogingo on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:33AM (#28671099)
No mention of lockdown effects detracts from the credibility of that comment.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by dukeyukey on Monday September 27, 2021 @11:40AM (#28672049)
I can tell you now, the UK has functionally no restrictions within the country. You ought to wear masks on public transport, that's about it. Lockdown is over, for now at least.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by nicoburns on Monday September 27, 2021 @12:38PM (#28672870)
The lockdown has had some effect: HGV tests and lessons were restricted over the lockdown period. And the DVLA has also gone on strike due to covid workplace safety concerns which has meant that those who have passed their tests have been delayed in getting their licenses.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by heywherelogingo on Monday September 27, 2021 @12:48PM (#28673018)
You're saying effects are only instantaneous. No comment.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by dukeyukey on Monday September 27, 2021 @01:26PM (#28673540)
I don't think I'm saying that. The only thing I meant was the UK has no lockdown right now, and hasn't for a number of months. I imagine lockdown had some effect, but other countries that went through harsher conditions aren't seeing the shortages the UK is, so I imagine other things are more to blame.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by bayesian_horse on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:36AM (#28671131)
no other country with a lockdown is having the same problem, and GB sort of stopped their lockdowns a while ago, didn't they?

Workers aren't prevented from travelling because of Covid restrictions, but Visa restrictions do apply. Also it's not a good prospect to move to a country where you feel like you are on some kind of a migratory ejection seat...

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by joeberon on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:41AM (#28671198)
Yes I came from GB to Germany a month ago and I can say that definitely the lockdown is basically over back there
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by timellis-smith on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:40AM (#28671183)
Europe also has a shortage

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl...

This is widely reported across a number of publications

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by drcongo on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:58AM (#28671434)
Is this the most trustworthy source you could find?
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by timellis-smith on Monday September 27, 2021 @11:03AM (#28671493)
Can't comment on the child of the post for some reason. Here is another source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/09/24/dont-blame-b...

Somehow it seems on these forums that any left leaning publication is immediately trusted but any right leaning one immediately distrusted.

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by bayesian_horse on Monday September 27, 2021 @11:26AM (#28671823)
It's just that the shelves in the UK are empty, and in the other countries they aren't. Both in the UK and in the rest of the EU there already was a shortage of professional drivers. And the companies in the UK do seem to blame the VISA situation as a major contributing factor.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by hogFeast on Monday September 27, 2021 @01:06PM (#28673292)
The shelves in the UK aren't empty. The press in Europe appears to be eagerly reporting this fact. Where I am, the supply of fresh food has improved significantly since the start of Covid. I don't know of anyone who has had problems buying food (if anyone did, there would be panic buying). There has been industrial action at some places, and some individual producers have driver shortages. It is not widespread at all (and btw, I live in rural area...we have had shortages before due to bad weather, but what is happening now isn't noticeable unless you are familiar with the grocery supply chain...this stuff is just being reported because it relates to Brexit, which journalists care about). It is fair to say there were probably problems due to Brexit for the supply of some fresh food...but that was months ago, and I didn't notice any disruption even then. And btw, if drivers were going to leave because of Brexit, they could have left between 2016-2020, the UK didn't ask anyone to leave, they all had the right to stay and work...most left in 2020, due to Covid, before we left. The timeline makes no sense.

The companies blame visa rules because they don't want to pay staff more. It is that simple (what people don't understand, even in the UK, these stories are all coming from a lobbying group of haulers...not drivers, the people who are having to pay staff more and are very angry about doing so, they just want the cheap labour back).

One of the companies that has had persistent shortages for months is a bread producer making £30m/year, they have 150 driver vacancies. I know someone who talked to a hiring manager there, they pay below market, they are experiencing massive attrition, when he asked what pay rises they were offering...2%, "the rise is satisfactory, workers should be happy"...meanwhile other firms are paying 10-30% raises, some HGV drivers are being retained on £50-60k salaries (this producer pays people £27k for multi-drop, starting at 2am, I believe it is mostly class 2 but their wages are a fantasy). Some firms in the UK have glutted themselves on cheap labour. They have no idea how to operate any other way (and btw, this bread producer is throwing away product every day because they don't have drivers, at no point have they tried to raise wages, they believe the low wage labour will return it seems).

Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by timellis-smith on Monday September 27, 2021 @12:14PM (#28672561)
Indeed so, but that may still be due to more complicated factors. At no point have I said it isn't a factor, just that it's one of many.
Re:Pumps run dry at gas stations in Britain by jack_riminton on Monday September 27, 2021 @10:36AM (#28671135)
Which is why I said mostly. Unless you'd care to exactly quantify the reasons?