News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by ananonymoususer on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:05PM (#28650108)
The government never had the authority to create such a moratorium in the first place, as found by the SCOTUS: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/26/us/eviction-moratorium-en...

From the ruling: “The C.D.C. has imposed a nationwide moratorium on evictions in reliance on a decades-old statute that authorizes it to implement measures like fumigation and pest extermination,” the opinion said. “It strains credulity to believe that this statute grants the C.D.C. the sweeping authority that it asserts.”

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by zuminator on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:12PM (#28650141)
To be clear, SCOTUS did not find that the government didn't have the authority. It rather explicitly stated that the C.D.C. does not, but Congress does. Which for good or ill, it declined to exercise.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by differentView on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:16PM (#28650164)
The CDC did what it thought was pragmatically the best thing to do considering the political reality at the time.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by giantg2 on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:36PM (#28650272)
What's that, undermining rule of law and the integrity of the system? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by Fellshard on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:40PM (#28650295)
You don't 'pragmatically' step outside of your constitutionally and/or legally defined boundaries. That is definitionally not pragmatic.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by jeffbee on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:47PM (#28650332)
But the CDC's emergency authority delegated to it by Congress is incredibly broad and puts almost no limits on their powers.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by throwawayboise on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:02AM (#28650411)
If that's true then that's a problem. There are worse things than getting sick.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by ruined on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:27AM (#28650530)
like what, revolutionary land reform?

the eviction moratorium was implemented because the alternative was a good fraction of the population getting evicted on a very short timescale. the legal and police infrastructure to carry it out simply did not exist, and any attempt would have been overwhelmed with refusal and defensive organizing.

any solution would have been problematic and disruptive to property rights. the CDC exceeding their authority just provided some realpolitik deniability for elected officials, and prevented open revolt.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by vkou on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:12AM (#28650468)
If that's true, I disagree that it's a problem. Congress gave it this power, if you don't like it, vote for a different congress.

> There are worse things than getting sick.

Disease control codes are as old as law. We live in a society, and part of keeping society running is keeping it healthy.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by Fellshard on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:17AM (#28650930)
But not to the exclusion of all other concerns.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by threatofrain on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:34PM (#28650264)
The language in the ruling also suggests it was the length of time which caused the court to believe the motivation had to do with financial policy more than public health policy. It is not that the CDC has no authority, just that they exceeded it.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by ananonymoususer on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:38PM (#28650286)
Any such move by Congress would also be challenged as an unconstitutional violation of the Fifth Amendment (Takings Clause).
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by urthor on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:36AM (#28651274)
It's also very difficult to justify under the commerce clause I imagine.

That said, the US constitution is an interesting beast, because of the Supreme Court's very very progressive interpretation of the commerce clause.

The Supreme Court has a very large amount of discretion in these things.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by Meekro on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:46PM (#28650329)
There was also a rather creative argument based on the Third Amendment (quartering of troops), assuming at least some of the tenants were soldiers.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by bpodgursky on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:29PM (#28650240)
I don't think this is an important point. There's no law allowing it.

If the "government" wanted something enough, they could get a supermajority together in congress and amend the constitution to make literally anything legal. But they haven't, in this case, done so.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by ananonymoususer on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:49PM (#28650338)
You are forgetting about the (often ignored) Tenth Amendment.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by bpodgursky on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:58PM (#28650385)
Congress could eliminate the tenth amendment anytime it had a supermajority... there's no clause in the constitution that cannot be amended.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by ananonymoususer on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:54PM (#28654909)
I'm not sure such a proposal would fly. It would be overtly acknowledging the policy shift toward a federal power grab. There would be some resistance and perhaps even some re-balancing of federal/state powers in the end.

As long as the Tenth is there, it is part of the constitution which all elected officials have sworn an oath to uphold.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by flenserboy on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:43AM (#28650615)
Not by itself. It must go through the States via the ratification process.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by chithanh on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:16PM (#28650162)
But Congress is not part of the government branch, it is part of the legislative branch.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by hdctambien on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:18PM (#28650176)
There isn't a "government branch". The is legislative, executive, and judicial. They are all "the government".
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by mannerheim on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:36PM (#28650273)
I think GP has a misunderstanding involving the difference between 'government' in the American English sense versus in other countries[0]:

> In the United States, "government" is considered to be divided into three branches; the legislature (the House of Representatives and the Senate) which makes law, the Administration (under the President) which runs sections of government within the law, and the Courts, which adjudicate on matters of the law. This is a much wider meaning of "government" than exists in other countries where the term "government" means the ruling political force of the prime minister and his/her cabinet ministers (what Americans would call the Administration).

I believe usually in countries with a parliamentary system, the government refers specifically to the executive branch, and neither the legislature nor the judiciary.

[0]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/government#Usage_notes

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by H8crilA on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:27PM (#28650227)
It's not just a technical distinction, the executive is under much stricter rules than the congress, which is only bound by the constitution (although it can also change that, with some extra steps).

The debt ceiling is a great example. The executive cannot spend what congress hasn't authorized.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by hdctambien on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:53PM (#28650351)
I was explaining that there is no "government branch", but as someone else pointed out that may have just been a translation error.

What you say about spending is correct. And, yeah, the differences between the legislative and executive branches are important and more than technicalities.

I wouldn't say the executive branch is under "stricter rules" than the legislative branch. It just has different rules and different responsibilities.

The legislative branch creates laws. The executive branch enforces/executes laws. The judicial branch makes sure those laws are constitutional and identifies their limits/scope.

Of course there is some gray area as congress likes to give some of its powers to the executive branch so that they can say "that wasn't my idea" to unpopular ideas.

Rather than make a law that says "forget about all that rent from last year" they would more likely make a law that says "someone in the executive branch has the power to say: forget about all that rent"

The other route would be for the judicial branch to say the executive branch already has that power... But they just said it doesn't.

And that's how the wheel of government turns... In the US

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by H8crilA on Saturday September 25, 2021 @08:29AM (#28652603)
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by avs733 on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:32PM (#28650249)
This is neither coherent not correct.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by adolph on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:49PM (#28650341)
If it isn’t coherent, how can you tell?
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by H8crilA on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:39PM (#28650293)
Well, thanks for explaining.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by lakecresva on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:38PM (#28650284)
This comment is somewhat disingenuous. The full text of the statutory provision (42 U.S.C. § 264) is :

"The Surgeon General, with the approval of the Secretary, is authorized to make and enforce such regulations as in his judgment are necessary to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the States or possessions, or from one State or possession into any other State or possession. For purposes of carrying out and enforcing such regulations, the Surgeon General may provide for such inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated as to be sources of dangerous infection to human beings, and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary."

While it's true that the majority wasn't willing to separate the first and second sentences, the decision was along party lines, and it just does not seem reasonable to me that a federal law intended to give the HHS "responsibility for preventing the introduction, transmission and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States" would limit the authority granted in the section "Regulations to control communicable diseases" to nothing more than fumigation and pest control.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by urthor on Saturday September 25, 2021 @03:40AM (#28651297)
Yes, but a liberal interpretation of "and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary" would imply unlimited executive power for the Surgeon General.

The US Congress can't just delete every single authority of the legislative and executive branch to the Surgeon General, a single sentence about "and other measures" cannot allow a Surgeon General to assume complete power.

This is where judicial interpretation comes into play with these laws. Congress writes bad laws sometimes.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by xyzzyz on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:50PM (#28650345)
Why not? To what would Congress would limit the authority then, if not to what it explicitly says they are allowed to? I mean, there must be some limits on what CDC is allowed to do based on that statue, as it would be completely absurd to expect that Surgeon General gets all powers of federal government limited only by what “may be necessary in his judgment”. So, if there are some limits, why not understand those in terms of what that very section explicitly lists?
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by lakecresva on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:25AM (#28650520)
> So, if there are some limits, why not understand those in terms of what that very section explicitly lists?

Because the list ends with "and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary.", and the text forces you believe that either a) the federal government intended to express a belief (in the same bill that officially gives the federal government quarantine authority) that disease could be contained via sanitation and pest control, or that b) they intended to give the Surgeon General a lot of latitude.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by AmericanChopper on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:56PM (#28650373)
The CDC’s interpretation puts the law in contention with the 5th amendment. It’s a lot more reasonable for SCOTUS to rule that the CDC exceeded the law than it is to evaluate the constitutionality of the law based upon the CDC’s new interpretation.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by lakecresva on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:12AM (#28650467)
Asked and answered by the Supreme Court a hundred years ago in Home Building & Loan Ass'n v. Blaisdell. In times of emergency (in that case it was the depression), the federal government can delay the repayment of debts without running afoul of the contracts clause or the fifth amendment.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by AmericanChopper on Saturday September 25, 2021 @01:11AM (#28650706)
There’s some significant differences between that case law, and this situation.

The mortgagee in that case applied to the court for relief, and had to make ongoing payments during the period that relief was granted. The relief did not put the creditor at a substantial risk of bankruptcy.

If the regulation was tested, I think it would have survived the constitution. But I don’t think all of the conditions of it would. I’m skeptical that the criteria for qualifying, and the process for applying would have passed, and I think SCOTUS would probably expect more clarity on the obligations of applicants (ie around partial payments).

The constitution still exists during an emergency, and there’s still a bar that must be met when infringing upon the rights it grants. But SCOTUS tends to avoid ruling on the constitutionality of a law in cases where the simpler explanation is that the law was not appropriately applied.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by lakecresva on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:17AM (#28650927)
> The mortgagee in that case applied to the court for relief, and had to make ongoing payments during the period that relief was granted. The relief did not put the creditor at a substantial risk of bankruptcy.

I'm not sure how these are related to due process and the fifth amendment so I don't see how they would distinguish the two cases. Under the CDC moratorium eviction, tenants still needed to show the appropriate degree of financial hardship.

> But SCOTUS tends to avoid ruling on the constitutionality of a law in cases where the simpler explanation is that the law was not appropriately applied.

They're not arguing about that, because to do so would require something resembling a consensus on what the actual law is. They're arguing about statutory interpretation. The main thread of the dissent in Alabama Assn. of Realtors was that "[T]o make and enforce such regulations as in [its] judgment are necessary to prevent the introduction, trans-mission, or spread of communicable diseases [inter-state]." means exactly what it says.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by AmericanChopper on Saturday September 25, 2021 @02:57AM (#28651090)
> I'm not sure how these are related to due process and the fifth amendment so I don't see how they would distinguish the two cases

They seem to be the most obvious areas to appeal for a judicial review. According to the case law, all of the following have to be considered:

* The impact to the property owner

* Whether the compensation is just

* The level of due process afforded

* The overall rationality of the policy

The fact that the process doesn’t consider the financial impact to the landlords is an obvious point of contention. The fact that it essentially applied to all tenants, regardless of their circumstances, was a very extreme compromise of due process, and could be seen as undermining the rationale of the entire policy. The fact that tenants were not compelled to make the payments that they could afford to make undermines the justness of the compensation, and further undermines due process.

Just because the state has the power to infringe upon your rights in an emergency, doesn’t mean they can do whatever they want. The avenues from which you could approach a judicial review of the policy are perfectly obvious. Even if the moratorium itself is constitutional, there’s plenty of implementation details that are absolutely not obviously constitutional.

Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by zzyzxxz on Friday September 24, 2021 @11:57PM (#28650379)
One of the dissenting opinions (Sotomayor, I think?) stated that the CDC is allowed to do things like quarantines, and therefore something more benign like an eviction moratorium ought to be allowed too. I found that logic pretty convincing that the Trump-appointed justices were in the wrong. But, right and wrong don't really matter -- just winning.
Re:Millions Still Months Behind on Rent After Eviction Morat... by SllX on Saturday September 25, 2021 @12:34AM (#28650569)
The CDC is allowed to do what is authorized by Congress within the limits of the Constitution. If that does not include eviction moratoriums but it does include quarantines, then it does not follow that because the CDC may quarantine people it may also issue a nation-wide eviction moratorium.