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Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by notanzaiiswear on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:15AM (#28576002)
Or, you could simply allow private entities to build housing.

I am sure especially in those "hot" areas where prices are spiralling out of control, there is no shortage of entities with the "will" to build.

That is usually the point behind markets, rising prices give an incentive to increase supply.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by awild on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:21AM (#28576045)
Berlin has been a hot market for a long time, what's been built has been a lot of very expensive apartments. There is actually some leerstand but they are luxury apartments without renters. The biggest thing the market has achieved in Berlin is allowing landlords to rent out shitty apartments at abhorrent prices (25sqm at 600€) without incentive to actually provide good services for the renters
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by asdfasgasdgasdg on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:31AM (#28576126)
It would surprise me if Berlin is permissive with respect to permitting new housing. It would be quite unique among desirable western cities if it did. When the amount of new housing allowed is insufficient to keep up with growth in demand, obviously developers are going to tackle the most lucrative segment of the market, since they can essentially pick their buyers. If there were ten people who want new cars but you have one import permit, and your cut is 10%, are you going to import the luxury car or the econobox?
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by awild on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:37AM (#28576168)
I agree and that's why I think the problem cannot be solved in private hands but with communal ownership.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by asdfasgasdgasdg on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:40AM (#28576186)
If you permit enough new housing to satisfy demand, that would also solve the problem. As long as insufficient new housing is being built, prices will go up on market rate housing. The lucky few who manage to get into price controlled housing will have better prices, but everyone else will face higher costs or be unable to live in a region entirely.

One thing is for sure: as long as any private housing ownership is allowed, rich people aren't going to be the ones left high and dry.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by awild on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:06AM (#28576376)
The amount of new apts would be dramatically high to curb prices and make them realistic again. And Berlin is probably also not able to magically create as much new living space as is needed in that short of a time frame especially given the developers unwillingness to build affordable housing. I think where we probably fundamentally don't agree is that not all things need to be provided through a market. (or I think my point is more so that we've at least observed it not reall working here, so we could at least try a different strategy or multitudes and see how far those take us)
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by asdfasgasdgasdg on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:13AM (#28576432)
> The amount of new apts would be dramatically high to curb prices and make them realistic again

I'm fine with short term patches to help with the acute issues, but fundamentally unless a lot of housing is built, there are going to be some people suffering in the housing market. Either it will be poor people paying a lot for housing, or it will be poor people who are unable to win lotteries to get into public housing who then cannot afford housing at all. Whether the housing is publicly or privately owned is just pushing sand around the sandbox. It just changes exactly who the winners and losers are, but not the number of people losing.

> I think where we probably fundamentally don't agree is that not all things need to be provided through a market.

I don't hold this belief. There is no fundamental disagreement on this score between us.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by notanzaiiswear on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:20AM (#28576482)
The problem is: who gets the cheap housing in communal ownership? Supply is limited. So if you don't pick the person who is willing to pay the most, who do you give the apartment to? Who gets to decide? Are you sure you want to live in that kind of world, where some political elite gets to decide your fate?
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by bakuninsbart on Saturday September 18, 2021 @01:24PM (#28577791)
A number of public housing here in Berlin is reserved for people making less than a certain amount, having no job at all, or working/living in precarious situations. You can apply for that status at the local gov. It is not flawless, of course, but it at least avoids segregation.

I live in a district that was originally working class, and is being very fastly gentrified now (yuppie myself I guess), and it just sucks that people who've lived here all their lives have to move to completely new environments because this is now an area desirable desirable for rich people.

Same with small businesses, one of my favorite bars closed down recently due to some English billionaires wanting to turn the house into higher margin living. Vice did a documentary on it called "Punks vs. Billionaires". For the people living here, who live in small flats and still pay half their income to it, these "living room" bars, where you do not have to buy to be welcome were absolutely essential. But they all get destroyed now.

Almost all new private housing is for richer people, because they are the most profitable, and lots of them move over at the moment. The state needs to step in to make sure that normal people can still live a decent life around here, too, lest we become a horror show like London.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by yunohn on Saturday September 18, 2021 @11:36AM (#28577039)
> Are you sure you want to live in that kind of world, where some political elite gets to decide your fate?

Whenever people say stuff like this, I wonder if they’ve ever taken a moment to look around themselves and see that it is already that way. The current housing problem is also orchestrated by the same political elite…

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by xyzzyz on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:17PM (#28577297)
There is a difference between policies making your desired place more expensive, and being literally dependent on some corrupt government officials, who is handing out apartments as favors for allies, or just for bribes.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by awild on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:24AM (#28576512)
There is already communal property in Berlin and all over Europe. Its not some grim socialist dystopia. They serve under the same conditions as private companies just don't have to completely bend over to shareholders wishes. Vienna the city for example is the biggest landlord in Europe.

Obviously we need more housing but until then we also need to ensure that people with normal incomes can also afford to live _in_ the City.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by vonmoltke on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:18AM (#28576472)
How is it that there are "luxury apartments without renters", yet landlords get away with " rent[ing] out shitty apartments at abhorrent prices"? Why don't the people who can afford those shitty apartments move to the empty luxury ones instead?
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by Kliment on Saturday September 18, 2021 @11:15AM (#28576878)
Because they're not on the rental market, but are mostly used as a value store by owners that don't live anywhere nearby, and have multiple properties.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by geitir on Saturday September 18, 2021 @04:05PM (#28578854)
Maybe impose a tax on unoccupied apartments past a certain number
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by dredmorbius on Saturday September 18, 2021 @08:23PM (#28580571)
A land value tax accomplishes this without the complexities of determining occupancy status or fraud concerning same.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by notanzaiiswear on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:15AM (#28576443)
The argument of the empty apartments in Berlin comes up all the time, but it is a myth. Maybe in London it is different, for various reasons, but in Berlin, that is not the reason for the issues. [1]

Even if only new luxury apartments are being built, it is more housing that takes pressure off the market. The wealthy people can move into those apartments, freeing their old less luxurious apartments for "poorer" people.

And there is no "free market" for housing here - it is very difficult to build, with lots of regulations.

And who wants to invest, when the government will seize your assets as soon as you are successful? Last year they introduced a hard cap on rents, that applied no matter how much you paid for the house you wanted to rent out, and no matter where it was located.

In two weeks, there will be a public vote to seize thousands of flats at "way below market value" (quote from the voting sheet) from corporate landlords. These are not conditions where a "free market" can do its thing.

As a matter of fact, only big companies have the means to build under such conditions, it is much too risky for smaller entities.

But then, sure, blame the evil capitalists for the issues your socialist government has created.

[1] https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/wohnungsnot-leerstand-in-...

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by shkkmo on Saturday September 18, 2021 @03:42PM (#28578676)
> Even if only new luxury apartments are being built, it is more housing that takes pressure off the market.

Luxury housing construction can help, but can't really fix the issue on its own because it is also a relatively inefficient and expensive method of increasing the housing supply (since each added unit has high costs.)

This problem is one that a large number of municipalities have failed to solve. It seems very difficult to get the regulatory and tax incentive structure setup just right to get sufficient affordable housing built in large urban areas.

> As a matter of fact, only big companies have the means to build under such conditions, it is much too risky for smaller entities.

I would think that governments have the scale to take on those risks as well. At some point, I think it makes sense to stop struggling to get privately build affordable housing and do it publicly.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by Jenk on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:30AM (#28576114)
> you could simply allow private entities to build housing.

London is the poster boy for exactly why you don't do this.

The result is builders and landlords buying up land, "delaying" (often indefinitely) building the homes to artificially drive up the prices of existing housing, or building tiny, tiny, apartments in huge hive-like blocks and towers, with insane prices.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by dnissley on Saturday September 18, 2021 @01:12PM (#28577715)
Nobody lives there anymore. It's too expensive.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by yunohn on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:18AM (#28576023)
There’s always real estate developers willing to build. The problem is that they never want to build affordable housing, only massively profitable housing. Also, an underlying problem is usually lack of land - a limited resource by nature.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by ryan93 on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:30AM (#28576113)
If they build luxury apts rich people take those freeing up crappier apts for middle income people and so on. Silicon valley millionaires dont want to spend 2.5 million on shitty 50yr old homes, but they cant get new ones built
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by yunohn on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:17AM (#28576459)
Thanks for this non-insightful comment and derailing a post about Berlin into yet another SV rant.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by RicoElectrico on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:18AM (#28576474)
If you give real estate developers too much of a free hand, they will plaster over every bit of common space with cramped flats or other abominations. There's even a word for it in Polish - "patodeweloperka". It's most prominent in Cracow (alleged ties of real estate companies with local officials), also in Warsaw and its suburbs. In Gdańsk, it's suspected that many old unused buildings in attractive areas had an "accidental" fire.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by inglor_cz on Saturday September 18, 2021 @11:04AM (#28576798)
I looked at some of the new construction in Wroclaw (arguably not Cracow) and it seemed fine to me.

If I could sustain my work from abroad, I would be tempted to move to Wroclaw, actually. Unfortunately I need access to cheap shipping to Czechia, which means being in Czechia or at least going there pretty often.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by gregorygoc on Saturday September 18, 2021 @02:38PM (#28578288)
Define “fine”. People want to start the family, but private real estate developers build shitload 40m^2, 1 bedroom flats (as they’re the most profitable). I’d argue the current housing market is definitely not “fine” for them.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by kiba on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:53AM (#28576280)
You need to realign incentives. You can't do that now if homeowners and investors don't want to allow housing.

Resetting taxes to LVT means that improvements on land won't be disincentivized. Buying them out means they get a lot of cash and won't be so opposed to you lowering the value of their owned property.

Also, the government will be able to afford to focus on cheap housing, not what makes them the most money, since their focus isn't private profit.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by blub on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:38AM (#28576172)
The prices are spiraling out of control everywhere that’s even moderately desirable. In a city in the BW part of Germany which has ~20k inhabitants and is nearby another city with ~200k inhabitants there’s new 3 room apartments for sale for around 400.000+ €.

The sales prices in BW and many other areas of Germany are simply ridiculous.

And they are building: a few dozen lots are being offered by the city and there’s dozens of takers per lot.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by axiosgunnar on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:54AM (#28576285)
Then they are not allowing to build enough if there are dozens per lot?
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by blub on Sunday September 19, 2021 @06:59AM (#28583344)
Which city can easily add thousands of parcels of land for building houses? There’s significant administrative effort and those extra houses would put pressure on all local municipal services. This has to be thought out and done incrementally.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by fnord77 on Saturday September 18, 2021 @09:55AM (#28576298)
in SF, the wholesale cost for building a unit is $800-900k.

private entities will only build luxury housing in these conditions

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by foepys on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:03AM (#28576357)
This is one of the reasons why all new housing is in the luxury category in Germany as well.

Building codes have become so strict that it's not worthwhile to build affordable housing for private investors. Especially since the government pays incentives (or rather gives out very low interest loans) to build houses of the highest energy standard.

Why build a "cheap" house when you can build a more expensive house with subsidies that has a lot higher resale value later?

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by kiba on Saturday September 18, 2021 @10:39AM (#28576604)
Why are building code so strict? Are they 'necessary'? How much benefit do these building codes provide?
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by inglor_cz on Saturday September 18, 2021 @11:07AM (#28576822)
Note that there is a lot of lobbying involved in the building code. An example:

What if a kid ran into a balcony glass and broke it, hurting or killing itself? Better demand that balcony glass be reinforced (and more expensive, to a great delight of the glass factories!) just in case. Even in old folks' homes.

No one wants to be known as the child killer, so here is a new demand making the construction a bit more expensive.

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by shkkmo on Saturday September 18, 2021 @03:47PM (#28578719)
That seems perfectly reasonable to me. I expect balcony railings to be sturdy, they exist precisely to prevent accidents. As long as there is no regulation mandating railings be made of glass, I don't see any problem. I've only ever seen glass railings on the houses of people who can afford to pay someone else to clean them (i.e luxury housing) so I don't see how that makes it harder to build affordable housing.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by inglor_cz on Sunday September 19, 2021 @04:47AM (#28582759)
I meant glass in the door that connects the room to the balcony. Not in railings. Sorry.
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by fnord77 on Sunday September 19, 2021 @01:10AM (#28581874)
earthquakes, at least in SF
Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by rcpt on Saturday September 18, 2021 @05:05PM (#28579299)
> build luxury housing

The most luxurious housing is single family homes. Is that all they're pitching in SF now?

Re:Berlin buys thousands of apartments from corporate landlords by fnord77 on Sunday September 19, 2021 @01:09AM (#28581866)
most of the new development is midrise to highrise condos.

I don't think there are any new SFH being built on empty lots.