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Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by jjk166 on Thursday September 16, 2021 @05:15PM (#28557722)
Honestly I'm surprised that Australia didn't go with nuclear submarines earlier. As an island nation, naval strenth needs to take top priority. It has an incredibly long coastline, much of which is sparsely populated, particularly in the north where any attack would be reasonably expected to come from, with few bases in the area to support fleet operations (to my knowledge there are no naval depots between Perth and Darwin with about 2500 miles of coastline in between). All potential adversaries are a long distance away and Australia has no overseas naval bases at which to refuel. Critically, all the major chokepoints that a potential adversary would need to sail through are very far from Australia, with it's territorial waters being extremely open. It's really a perfect use case for nuclear attack subs.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by marticode on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:19AM (#28562262)
Australia is not a nuclear nation and as such, is normally not supposed to be able to buy nuclear devices of any sort. Which is why they initially bought French submarines that are nuclear but asked them to be retrofitted for standard propulsion.

What the US and the UK did here is a breach of a worldwide agreement by nuclear powers to not supply non nuclear ones in order to restrict nuclear proliferation. Which is one reason the French are pissed - the US took away their contract by breaking a rules the French had stuck to.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by cturner on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:01AM (#28562544)
"breach of a worldwide agreement"

I don't see anything in NPT that forbids the US and UK from supplying nuclear propulsion to Australia. They are not supplying nuclear warheads.

The reason the French are pissed are strictly commercial. But that is on Naval Group. As soon as the deal was struck between Australia and Naval Group, Naval Group were changing the terms, and were years behind on some of the earliest deliveries. Had the project been going well, Australia would not have spent political capital seeking this new deal.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by mytailorisrich on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:11AM (#28562610)
It may be convenient to blame the French (isn't it always?) and indeed the deal was not going smoothly, but these are hugely political decisions and I think a key to what has happened is American pressure on Australia.

The French are not only 'pissed off' for commercial reasons. The deal was part of a long term strategy of France in the region, with India and Australia being the two main partners, so this has serious consequences for them beyond a simple arms sale.

Now, on the other hand, two good questions are whether the Australian ever discussed the possibility of France supplying nuclear-powered submarines instead of conventional ones, and whether France would have accepted. I don't know the answer to either though I'm doubtful about the latter and that may be an objective and very good reason for Australia to switch.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by willyt on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:30AM (#28562735)
French nuclear deterrent is entirely developed in house, whearas the UK one is US power plant, warheads and missiles with British naval architecture. Maybe the French didn’t give them nuclear tech for security reasons, same way no-one else is allowed to buy America’s top end stuff.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by jjk166 on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:07AM (#28565643)
The French did offer to sell Australia nuclear subs in 2016, but Australia chose not to go with that option.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by josephagoss on Sunday September 19, 2021 @04:52AM (#28582773)
The missiles are US but I was under the impression the warheads on UK tridents are UK built. No US warheads involved.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by marticode on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:45AM (#28562838)
> I don't see anything in NPT that forbids the US and UK from supplying nuclear propulsion to Australia.

And yet it's a tacit agreement among nuclear nations to not sell military nuclear equipment to non-nuclear nations (ie who don't have at least a civilian program).

Which is why North Korea for ex has never been able to buy nuclear equipment from China or Russia. So far, because now that the US has decided breaking the rule for a short term financial gain was worth it, other's will decide that they might as well help their own allies too with a few reactors.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by jjk166 on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:00AM (#28565570)
North Korea's Yongbon Nuclear Reactor was supplied by the Soviet Union. Russia came very close to selling North Korea a 200 MW reactor in the early 90s but the deal fell through when North Korea refused to pay. In 1994, the United States agreed to build 2 1000 MW reactors in North Korea as part of the Agreed Framework, which was only suspended after North Korea withdrew from the NPT.

There is not nor has there ever been any prohibition on providing nuclear technology and equipment to non-nuclear weapons states. In this particular case, France offered to sell Australia nuclear submarines back in 2016 and Australia decided against it, but one of their reasons for going with the French proposal was that the submarines could be converted to nuclear in the future.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by throwaway210222 on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:06AM (#28565634)
> North Korea's … Reactor was supplied by the Soviet Union.

In 2000, the Swiss company ABB signed a contract to deliver not one, but two nuclear reactors to North Korea.

Here's the bit that should drain anyone of all faith in politicians: Donald Rumsfeld was an ABB board member at the time.

[1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/rumsfeld-was-on-abb-board-durin...

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by caf on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:39AM (#28563161)
North Korea can't buy nuclear equipment from those countries because it has withdrawn from the NPT entirely, and it doesn't have a safeguards agreement with the IAEA.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by phs318u on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:27PM (#28573380)
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by mmerlin on Saturday September 18, 2021 @07:55PM (#28580443)
the French deal was absolutely crappy to begin.

Follow the money. Christopher Pyne brokered this $50Bn deal to get re-elected (some boatbuilding would happen in SA) which blew out to $90Bn and rising.

Pyne immediately retired (got his pollie-perks-for-life golden ticket stamped) and then immediately became "employed" as a consult with the people profiting massively from this twisted deal against the public interest.

Pyne followed the same slimy playbook as Andrew Robb (4) who sneakily slipped the 99-year Darwin Port dodgy deal across the line, and then he got a free $880k "job" with them the day he left parliament shortly thereafter.

Borderline treasonous behavior is rife with our political elite (both sides stink badly)

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2016/04/would-you-employ-ch...

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/07/pyne-poisons-ey/

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/01/audit-office-torped...

(4) https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/06/chinese-sell-andrew...

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by Bayart on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:07AM (#28562955)
>The reason the French are pissed are strictly commercial.

No, they're not. The sub deal with Australia was just part of a broader Pacific strategy to which Australia was central. Now that Australia sent the signal that it was to be a plugin in the US foreign policy rather than a country of its own, the entire strategy is dead and needs to be reworked. It's a major setback. It coming from the Nth sabotage of the French defense industry by the US is just the cherry on the top.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nsonha on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:16AM (#28566435)
Just out of curiosity why would the French even have a Pacific strategy?
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by Bayart on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:46AM (#28566832)
We have territories in the Pacific, most notably New Caledonia (Australia's closest neighbour, I believe), and a huge EEZ [1].

[1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Map_of_t...

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by caf on Saturday September 18, 2021 @07:32AM (#28575347)
Australia's closest neighbour is Papua New Guinea - the closest Australian island is only 4km from the PNG coast.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nsonha on Friday September 17, 2021 @02:46PM (#28569379)
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by roca on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:40AM (#28562404)
What does a "nuclear nation" mean here? Note that Australia has a small (20MW) nuclear reactor at Lucas Heights. 32 countries have commercial power reactors, including the likes of Slovenia and Armenia. Are they "nuclear nations" or not?
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by NL807 on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:59AM (#28562529)
I think the main differentiator here is operating big enough reactors that could be used to enrich practical quantities of nuclear material.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nsonha on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:19AM (#28566473)
May be it's not about reactor because anyone can operate one, more about the capability of processing nuclear materials like you said
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by vijayr02 on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:27AM (#28562320)
I understand France is helping Brazil build a nuclear submarine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_submarine_%C3%81lvar...

Did that get an exception? Seems strange France could get that for Brazil but not Australia.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by marticode on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:47AM (#28562848)
Brazil has multiple civilian nuclear reactors in operations. Australia has no significant nuclear expertise. France would probably have preferred selling nuclear submarines because it would have saved on retrofitting cost.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by cm2187 on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:32AM (#28562347)
I was under the impression that nuclear proliferation applies to nuclear weapons, not to nuclear power. In fact if you look at the list, most countries using civil nuclear power do not have nukes [1]. I assumed Australia was ideologically opposed to nuclear and I understand the French modified their subs to accomodate the Australians, not to not violate a proliferation treaty.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_by_country#Overv...

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by accountofme on Friday September 17, 2021 @09:03PM (#28572627)
We already have nuclear reactor at Lucas Heights in New South Wales. It is used for science rather than power generation.

So on that note, we have nuclear technology already. Your point on proliferation does not hold.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by caf on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:12AM (#28562622)
The NPT restrictions the proliferation of nuclear explosives, not reactors - not even naval propulsion reactors.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by marticode on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:53AM (#28562884)
This isn't part of the NPT - this is a tacit agreement that nuclear nations don't sell nuclear (or nuclear powered) weapons to non nuclear nations. This is why North Korea never managed to buy nuclear stuff from its Chinese ally. So far.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by caf on Friday September 17, 2021 @06:00AM (#28563339)
There has never been such an agreement.

What there has been is the NPT's Article I prohibition on the provision of nuclear weapons or nuclear explosive devices to non-weapons-states (which are all but the 5 weapons states, USA, Russia, France, UK, China). It also prohibits assistance / inducement in developing weapons.

The "(or nuclear powered)" bit has never been a thing.

There is also the Nuclear Suppliers Group, which is a group of nuclear-technology-exporting countries that agree not to export to NPT non-weapons-states a much longer list of dual-use nuclear technologies, unless IAEA comprehensive safeguards agreements are in place. Australia is a member of the NSG, and has safeguards agreements with the IAEA.

The IAEA has been informed by all three states of this new proposal.: https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/iaea-on-trilat...

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by TakuYam on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:37AM (#28563147)
A submarine is not a nuclear powered weapon, or even a weapon unless they’re going to be using them to ram adversaries
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by mgarfias on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:13AM (#28566396)
“Nuclear attack sub” refers to a fast attack submarine with nuclear power, not a “boomer” that carries sub launched ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads.

“Fast attack” subs hunt other subs, convoys, ships, etc. they are not strategic weapons.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by g5095 on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:33AM (#28562354)
dude we (Australia) literally have all the uranium .. we're the ones supplying you
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nix23 on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:55AM (#28562498)
There are "some" others, but Australia is place 2 (2020):

https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fu...

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nsonha on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:21AM (#28566501)
Just raw or do we enrich it? That might be the key
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by anakaine on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:34PM (#28569998)
We had an enrichment program from 65 to 84, but only on a small scale. At a similar time we were also only a week or two away from having nuclear warheads.

As a nation the pivot to having nuclear weapons is quite straight forward. The technology and resources are available, and the infrastructure has been researched and applied at smaller scales in the past. We're also quite invested in hypersonic projectiles, so it wouldn't take a whole lot to arm a formidable arsenal, the highest cost being political capital.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by Bayart on Sunday September 19, 2021 @06:07PM (#28588400)
The implications as far as non-proliferation go are potentially quite grave [1]. It might be seen as the US opening the floodgate on the export of weapon-grade uranium outside of international oversight.

[1]: https://thebulletin.org/2021/09/the-new-australia-uk-and-us-...

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by megablast on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:28AM (#28562323)
> particularly in the north where any attack would be reasonably expected to come from,

What will they attack in the north?? Empty land?? Desert?? Beaches.

It would be completely pointless attacking the North. What, land in the north, then send their troops and tanks 3,000 km across a desert??

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by philip142au on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:34AM (#28562366)
Correct. The Alligators, spiders, snakes and harsh environment with no good roads and a huge distance between there and any people doesn't make it an attractive place to land and then get bombed on by planes.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by marcus_holmes on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:43AM (#28562422)
I can just imagine a few thousand Chinese troops rocking up to Geraldton after slogging all the way through the desert from somewhere near Broome. The disappointment would be palpable.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nsonha on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:23AM (#28566538)
The Long Disappointing March
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by mbrodersen on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:29PM (#28573392)
Hahaha your comment made me laugh out loud. Perfect :)
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by roca on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:14AM (#28562633)
It's called a beachhead. Take Darwin, then you have a safe platform to threaten the rest.

However, I doubt anyone expects an invasion of the Australian mainland. Attacks on shipping are a more likely threat. Maybe naval support to Australian allies that are closer to China.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by jjk166 on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:25AM (#28565855)
I think you misunderstand, it's where the attack comes from, not goes to. Unless Australia goes to war with Antarctica, every possible attack on Australia would be sailing approximately south towards it from a more northerly position. If you want to stop Chinese ships from sailing into Sydney, you must engage them north of Sydney, ideally a lot further north.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nashalo on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:43PM (#28570105)
Interestingly, China has been developping bases in Antarctica recently.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nsonha on Saturday September 18, 2021 @02:26PM (#28578222)
I don't know that any of the bases in Antartica is military, Chinese or others'.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by mellavora on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:57AM (#28562515)
I thought New Zealand had declared itself a nuclear-free zone, which would mean Australian nuclear subs could not visit New Zealand ports nor pass through New Zealand waters.

This would be one reason why Australia might not want nuclear subs.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by roca on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:15AM (#28562642)
Australian nuclear subs will not be allowed into NZ waters, Jacinda Ardern was quite clear on that. However, there is no reason why they would want to enter NZ waters.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by sotruesotrue on Sunday September 19, 2021 @03:40AM (#28582466)
Some day these submarines may well enter NZ waters to protect and defend NZ. Its a small world, NZ can shut their eyes and hope all the bad things will just go away, but they wont.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by roca on Sunday September 19, 2021 @07:48PM (#28589039)
In the event of an invasion or blockade the nuclear-free policy would be relaxed as needed.

It is incredibly difficult to imagine a scenario where, say, China launches a naval invasion or blockade of NZ but is not already at war with our allies. In the latter case subs would engage their navy long before they reach NZ waters.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by EdwardDiego on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:07AM (#28562584)
Yep, the status quo holds. That said, Australia's defensive posture has always been oriented north towards Asia, not much reason for them to traverse NZ waters.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by littlestymaar on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:12AM (#28562617)
> in the north where any attack would be reasonably expected to come from,

There is no reasonable expectation of an attack on Australia. This is not about defense of Australian coasts, it's about strength projection towards South China See, Taiwan Straight and Pacific Ocean.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by caf on Friday September 17, 2021 @06:05AM (#28563372)
It's the same reasons Australia has always had submarines - defence of shipping because an island nation relies on shipped goods, and an ISR platform.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by littlestymaar on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:24PM (#28567377)
But you don't need the autonomy of a nuclear submarine to do that. You need them to reach the coasts of China. (And the official announcement speech isn't even hiding it)
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by caf on Saturday September 18, 2021 @07:41AM (#28575398)
It depends on how far away the shipping is being interdicted. And ISR platforms are potentially more useful further away, too.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by MichaelMoser123 on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:35AM (#28562377)
Australia is party to the ANZUS treaty, so any attack on Australia would count as an attack on the US, same as with NATO. If you ask me, then it is not quite clear why Australia needs its own nuclear fleet, all of a sudden.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by jjk166 on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:38AM (#28565990)
By that same logic, why does Australia, or any other nation allied with the US for that matter, even need its own armed forces?

Australia is a sovereign nation, not a client of the United States. It is free to engage in its own foreign policy and should logically want some safeguard in case its relationship with the US should ever sour.

Even if the relationship stays strong and the US makes defending Australia its top priority in a war, the US and its vast military might is on the other side of the planet - it would take many weeks to move ships to where they are needed. It is sensible for US allies to maintain forces dedicated to their own defense which are strong enough to hold out for the cavalry to arrive. A fleet of Australian nuclear subs may very well be the difference between America reinforcing a free Australia and America liberating an occupied Australia.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by anakaine on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:42PM (#28570096)
We also should not forget the four years most recently where the sitting US president was claiming NATO/UN/ANZUS/other military defence pacts to be a farse because the US wasn't deriving an immediate and obvious dollar value from them. To the point where he made statements alluding to those other countries finding themselves without military support if they didn't pay the US for protection. He literally tried to apply a mob protection racket via insinuation over international politics and treaties.

Any sane nation considering their own self defence and sovereignty would be looking to bolster their own position instead of relying solely on that sort of unreliable and borderline abusive relationship.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by MichaelMoser123 on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:39PM (#28573452)
By that logic Australia would also need its own nukes, I mean the potential adversary is nuclear armed China, and nuclear submarines are most often used as launchers for missiles armed with nuclear warheads. The point being is that it is not quite clear where to draw the line.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by caf on Saturday September 18, 2021 @07:44AM (#28575412)
China's nuclear forces are not sized or equipped for a first-strike doctrine. As currently fielded they are a second-strike reprisal/deterrent force.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by hef19898 on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:57AM (#28562518)
Defense contractors need orders. Not that the US or the UK are ordering new nuclear sub fleets at the moment.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by MichaelMoser123 on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:43AM (#28563195)
What do you make of the last section of the original article?

   Peter Jennings, executive director of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, backed the new deal and said his initial response was "surprise".

   "The irony is that when we chose the French-designed submarine a few years ago we actually took a nuclear-powered submarine and have been spending millions of dollars turning it into a diesel submarine."
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by hef19898 on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:49AM (#28563253)
That there were a lot of really good fel-cell powered, heck even really good diesel-electric, subs on the market. And that the how's and when's behind the decision to buy a nuclear sub, just to transform it into a diesel-electric one, would be really interesting to know...
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by EdwardDiego on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:09AM (#28562598)
They're looking to counter Chinese moves in the South China Sea in particular, as China has been acting aggressively diplomatically and economically towards Australia under Xi.

The advantage of nuclear subs over diesels is the long linger time while submersed, and the range.

So I think Australia is wanting to do a little force projection of their own.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by jeswin on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:24AM (#28562697)
It will be quite unfair to expect the US to shoulder a disproportionate burden in collective defence treaties (they already spend 3.7% of GDP on defence, compared to Australia's 2.1% or Germany's 1.6%).

Australia spending on these subs will add to the coalition's strength, with Asia heating up rapidly.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by nsonha on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:34AM (#28566679)
If you are the one pushing for it, why not?
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by senectus1 on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:17AM (#28562659)
just because we're part of the treaties doesn't mean we abdicate any responsibility for playing our part in upholding it.
Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by radu_floricica on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:16AM (#28562644)
Which means sooner or later US is gonna say something like "hey, wouldn't it be nice if you also spent some cash on this mutual defense thing?". I guess it happened.

Might also have something to do with Biden publicly demonstrating that he's going to stop the fight, consequences be damned.

Re:Australia to acquire nuclear submarine fleet (AUKUS) by hef19898 on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:55AM (#28562500)
Well, since modern non-nuclear sub's are more silent than nuclear ones those would be a better choice, IMHO. And cheaper.