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Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:34AM (#28552344)
As long as few people use it, it will be great. Rest assured that the moment it becomes popular, the people who want to game it will appear.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by jandrese on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:55AM (#28552628)
This sort of optimization is why simple recipes are typically found at the end of a rambling pointless blog post now.

Still, the best way to break SEO is to have actual competition in the search space. As long as SEO remains focused on Google there is an opportunity for these companies to thrive by evading SEO braindamage.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by WorldMaker on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:57AM (#28553426)
That sort of recipe blog hasn't happened just for SEO. It's also a bit of a "two audiences" problem: if you are coming to that food blogger from a search you certainly would prefer the recipe first and then maybe any commentary on it below if the recipe looks good. If you are a regular reader of that food blogger you are probably invested in the stories up top and that parasocial connection and the recipes themselves are sometimes incidental to why you are a regular reader.

You see some of that "two readers" divide sometimes even in classic cookbooks, where "celebrity" chefs of the day might spend much of a cookbook on a long rambling memoir. Admittedly such books were generally well indexed and had table of contents to jump right to the recipes or particular recipes, but the concept of "long personal ramble of what these recipes mean to me" is an old one in cookbooks too.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by inanutshellus on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:55PM (#28554197)
I see your point, but argue you've misidentified the two audiences.

One audience matches your description and is the invested reader. They want that blogger's story telling. they might make the recipe, but they're a dedicated reader.

The other audience is not the recipe-searcher, but instead Google. Food bloggers know that recipe-searchers are there to drop in, get an ingredient list, and move on. They won't even remember the blog's name. So the site isn't optimized for them. It's optimized for Google.

"Slow the parasitic recipe-searcher down. They're leeches, here for a freebie. Well they'll pay me in Google Rank time blocks."

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by hdjjhhvvhga on Saturday September 18, 2021 @05:24AM (#28574825)
> Food bloggers know that recipe-searchers are there to drop in, get an ingredient list, and move on.

This is not entirely true, though. If a randomly found recipe turns out particularly good, I'll bookmark the site and try out other dishes. It's a very practical method to find particularly good* recipe collections.

*) In this case "good" means what you need - not just subjectively "tasty", but e.g. low cost, quick to prepare, low calorie or in line with a particular diet and so on.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by inanutshellus on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:04AM (#28593347)
I'm aware of zero human-behavior-truisms that are "entirely true".
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by giantrobot on Thursday September 16, 2021 @03:50PM (#28556550)
> If you are a regular reader of that food blogger

I think this assumes facts not in evidence. It certainly seems like an overwhelming number of "blogs" are not actual blogs but SEO content farms. There's no regular readers of such things because there's no actual authors, just someone that took a job on Fivver to spew out some SEO garbage. Old content gets reposted almost verbatim because new results better according to Google.

The only reason these "blogs" exist is to show ads and hopefully get someone's e-mail (and implied consent) for a marke....newsletter.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by WorldMaker on Thursday September 16, 2021 @04:42PM (#28557282)
I know at least a few that I commonly see in top search results that I have friends that read them like personalized soap operas where most of the drama revolves around food and family and serving food to family.

It's at least half the business models of Food Network shows: aspirational kitchens and the people that live in them and also sometimes here's their recipes. (The other half being competitions, obviously.) I've got friends that could deliver entire doctoral theses on the Bon Appetit Test Kitchen (and its many YouTube shows and blogs) and the huge soap operatic drama of 2020's events where the entire brand milkshake ducked itself; falling into people's hearts as "feel good" entertainment early in 2020/the pandemic and then exploding very dramatically with revelations and betrayals that Fall.

Which isn't to say that there aren't garbage SEO farms out there in the food blogging space as well, but a lot of the big ones people commonly complain about seeing in google's results do have regular fans/audiences. (ETA: And many of the smaller blogs want to have regular fans/audiences. It's an active influencer/"content creator" space with relatively low barrier to entry that people love. Everyone's family loves food, it's a part of the human condition.)

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by run-types on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:45PM (#28554068)
I've basically never been taken to a recipe without a rambling preamble from Google. While food blogs may serve two audiences, a long introduction seems to be a requirement to appear in the top Google search results.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by WorldMaker on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:52PM (#28554153)
Personally, I think that has a lot more to do with the fact that Google killed the Recipe Databases. There did used to be a few startups that tried to be Recipe Aggregators with advertising based business models, that would show recipes and then link to source blogs and/or cookbooks, and in the brief period where they existed Google scraped them entirely and showed entire recipes on search results and ate their ad revenue out from under them.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by dspillett on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:40AM (#28563167)
Such databases would get battered by demands to remove content these days, if not already back then. No one want a database listing their stuff for ad revenue like that because many wouldn't follow the links so see their adverts or be subject to their tracking.

A couple of browser add-ons specifically geared around trimming recipe pages down have been taken down due to similar complaints.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by tomrod on Thursday September 16, 2021 @01:02PM (#28554282)
That is a really bad thing by Google. Their core business is not recipes.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by kwertyoowiyop on Thursday September 16, 2021 @01:58PM (#28554931)
Their core business is making money from other people’s content, no matter what it is.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by WorldMaker on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:14PM (#28555139)
Their core business is advertising and they have always been in a direct conflict-of-interest by competing with content sites for ad revenue buys.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by xtracto on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:00AM (#28552682)
That's why I use Saffron [1], it magically converts those sites into a page in my recipe book. I found it when the developer commented here in HN. Also, a lot of cooking website have started to add a link with "jump to recipe" functionality allowing you to skip all the crap.

[1] https://www.mysaffronapp.com/

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by Funes- on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:04AM (#28552722)
There's also https://based.cooking.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by ggggtez on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:06AM (#28552743)
I've noticed this pattern start to pop up elsewhere. I've started to train my skimming skills, skipping a paragraph or two at a time to get past the fluff.

Like an article about some current event will undoubtedly begin with "when I was traveling ten years ago...".

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by zerd on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:48PM (#28555598)
It's also because that's a way of trying to copyright protect recipes, which are normally not copyright protected.

> “Mere listings of ingredients as in recipes, formulas, compounds, or prescriptions are not subject to copyright protection. However, when a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection.”

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by JohnFen on Friday September 17, 2021 @06:38PM (#28571692)
But that copyright protection only extends to the literary expression. The recipe itself is still not covered by copyright, even if accompanied by an essay.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by SerLava on Thursday September 16, 2021 @01:22PM (#28554526)
That's not really for SEO, which favors readily accessible information.

That's ads. When mobile users have to scroll past 10 add, theyll click on some of them and make the blog money.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by Aeolun on Thursday September 16, 2021 @07:03PM (#28558925)
Searching for ‘chocolate’ on this search engine turned up a surprisingly large amount of chocolate based recipes.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by YeGoblynQueenne on Thursday September 16, 2021 @01:51PM (#28554845)
>> This sort of optimization is why simple recipes are typically found at the end of a rambling pointless blog post now.

I continue to be curious about this kind of complaint. If all you want is a recipe list, without any of the fluff, why would you click on a link to a blog, rather than on a link to a recipe aggregator?

Foodie blogs exist specifically for the people who want a foodie discussion and not just an ingredients' list.

Is it because blogs tend to have better recipes overall? In that case, isn't there a bit of entitlement involved in asking that the author self-sacrificingly provides only the information that you want, without taking care of their own needs and wants, also?

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by joegahona on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:31PM (#28555343)
I think the complaint is that those blogs rank higher than nuts-and-bolts recipes now. It wasn't that way a few years ago. Yes, scrolling down the results to Food Network or Martha Stewart or whatever is possible, as is going directly to those sites and using their site search, but it's noticeable and annoying.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by YeGoblynQueenne on Friday September 17, 2021 @02:12AM (#28561850)
Not my experience. For a very quick test, I searched DDG for "omelette recipe, "carbonara recipe" and "peking duck recipe" (just to spice it up a bit) and all my top results are aggregators. Even "avgolemeono recipe" (which I'd think is very specialised) is aggregators on top.

To be honest, I don't follow recipes when I cook unless it's a dish I've never had before. At that point what I want is to understand the point of the dish. A list of ingredients and preparation instructions don't tell me what it's supposed to taste and smell like. The foodie blogs at least try to create a certain... feeling of place, I suppose, some kind of impression that guides you when you cook. I wouldn't say it always works but I appreciate the effort.

My real complaint with recipe writers is that they know how to cook one or two dishes well and they crib the rest off each other so even with all the information they provide, you still can't reliably cook a good meal from a recipe unless you've had the dish before. But that's my personal opinion.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by jandrese on Thursday September 16, 2021 @04:32PM (#28557145)
Because when you search for a recipe you get the link to the blog, not the aggregator.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by Loughla on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:08PM (#28555058)
It's the same thing that people always complain about. This thing is not in a format that I like, so it must be not what anyone likes.

If you want JUST recipes, pay money instead of just randomly googling around. America's test kitchen has a billion, vetted, and really good recipes. That solves that problem.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by marginalia_nu on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:43AM (#28564255)
Specialization mostly a problem in monocultures.

If you almost only plant wheat, you are going to end up with one hell of a pest problem.

If you almost only have Windows XP, you are going to have one hell of a virus problem.

If you almost only have SearchRank-style search engines (or just the one), you are going to have one hell of a content spam problem.

Even though they have some pretty dodgy incentives, I don't think google suffers quality problems because they are evil, I think ultimately they suffer because they're so dominant. Whatever they do, the spammers adapt almost instantly.

A diverse ecosystem on the other hand limits the viability of specialization by its very nature. If one actor is attacked, it shrinks and that reduces the opportunity for attacking it.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by Nextgrid on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:13AM (#28552836)
I don't think the existing media-heavy websites are gaming Google to rank higher. It's that Google itself prefers media heavy content; they don't have to "game" anything.

I also think a search engine like this would be quite hard to game. An ML-based classifier trained on thousands of text-heavy and media-heavy screenshots should be quite robust and I think would be very hard to evade, so the "game" will become more about how identify the crawler so you can serve it a high-ranking page while serving crap to the real users, and it seems fairly easily to defeat if the search engine does a second pass using residential proxies and standard browser user agents to detect this behavior (it could also threaten huge penalties like the entire domain being banned for a month to even deter attempts at this).

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by fragmede on Thursday September 16, 2021 @03:53PM (#28556595)
With the advances in text generation by machines that looks, but isn't quite accurate (aka GPT-3), seems like it would be easily gamed (given access to GPT-3). Even without GPT-3, if the content being prioritized is mere text, I'm sure that for a pile of money, I could generate something that looks like Wikipedia, in the sense that it's a giant pile of mostly text, but it would make zero sense to a human reader. (Building an SEO farm to boost ranking of not-wikpedia is left as an exercise for the reader.)
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by the_other on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:16AM (#28552885)
If there were a wider variety of popular search engines, with different ranking criteria, would sites begin to move away from gaming the system? Surely it would be too hard to game more than one search engine at a time?
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by Nasrudith on Thursday September 16, 2021 @04:03PM (#28556752)
It would be a matter of numbers anyway about which they optimize for. A/B testing is already in place and doesn't care about where it comes from, just which one does better.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by phendrenad2 on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:11AM (#28563937)
There should be some perfect balance where this search engine is N% as popular as Google, where Google soaks up all of the gamifiers, but this search engine is still popular enough to derive revenue and do ML and other search-engine-useful stuff.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by new_guy on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:17PM (#28553669)
> the people who want to game it will appear.

So just add human review to the mix, if a site is obviously trying to game the system (listicles, seo spam etc) just drop and ban them from the search index.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:57PM (#28554223)
Congratulations, you've just invented negative SEO.