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Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by jjeaff on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @04:48PM (#28530910)
I think the biggest issue is that a lot of people think they had covid previously but didn't get tested so they don't really know.

I thought I had covid early in the pandemic. Took a serology test and found out that I had not had it. I suspect a lot of people that think they had it are the same.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by isolli on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:07PM (#28531229)
Except that antibodies don’t tell the whole story. They may wane after a while, but the immune system is primed to fight off the virus at the next infection thanks to memory B cells and T cells.

Unfortunately, T-cell tests are not available in Europe, and apparently not reliable in the US. Which confirms the original point: there seems to be little interest in detecting previous infections.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by throwawayfear on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @11:34PM (#28534950)
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9

Many people who have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 will probably make antibodies against the virus for most of their lives. So suggest researchers who have identified long-lived antibody-producing cells in the bone marrow of people who have recovered from COVID-191.

The study provides evidence that immunity triggered by SARS-CoV-2 infection will be extraordinarily long-lasting. Adding to the good news, “the implications are that vaccines will have the same durable effect”, says Menno van Zelm, an immunologist at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...

Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...

The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by walterbell on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:57PM (#28532651)
> apparently not reliable in the US

Which T-cell test(s) are you referencing? What are the rates of false negatives or false positives?

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by isolli on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:45AM (#28536388)
Good question. I wrote "apparently" because I don't know much about T-cell tests. I would be happy for any information on the topic.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by pessimizer on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:22PM (#28532283)
Which means that testing is really undependable. Probably better to vaccinate everyone, because our prediction of the immunity of people who have been vaccinated is a lot more reliable.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by scythe on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:06PM (#28532718)
From an economic perspective, if the cost of the vaccine is less than the cost of the test, you just use the vaccine. "Natural immunity" makes sense as an objection if the individual had a recorded earlier infection, but administering 300M pre-infection tests and 200M vaccines is likely to be less efficient than just administering 300M vaccines. The more sophisticated of a test you demand, the stronger this argument becomes.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by freeflight on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:06PM (#28534359)
You would just be administering a cure, without having an actual diagnosis, which is by definition more wasteful.

Particularly when natural immunity comes for "free" and apparently works better, at that point insisting on vaccines for everybody is just completely nonsensical.

Rather shift resources to testing to get costs for that down, which is more work, but also doesn't come with the risk of later discovering "Oops, this vaccine that made people filthy rich turned out to have some nasty long-term side-effects!".

Which is also a very real possibility, considering they've been developed and approved in record time with the population at large acting as subjects for the first non-clinical trials.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by dredmorbius on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @12:08AM (#28535177)
A vaccine is an innoculation and prophylactic, not a cure.

The prophylactic costs less than the diagnostic. It has negligible risk of harm. It's a determinable and unambiguous event, unlike trying to verify a possible infection and sustained immune response.

The obvious rational policy decision for public health is to mandate the vaccine for everyone.

Those not previously infected gain immunity. Those previously infected ... either get a not-strictly-necessary injection, or far more likely, a useful booster.

And the administration, diagnostic, and monitoring costs are far lower.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by km3r on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:39PM (#28533065)
I think Canada accepts positive covid tests as proof of prior infection, and many people already have those tests done and just sitting in their email.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by jeromegv on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:28PM (#28534033)
Canada doesn't have a national health care system, this is managed by each provinces.

Quebec is the only province that will let you get only 1 dose of the vaccine, instead of 2, if you were previously infected. With that 1 dose, that's enough to have access to the vaccine passport.

But there are absolutely no places in Canada that accepts prior infection as being fully vaccinated.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by scythe on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:24PM (#28534005)
I mean, that's fine, but it's not what the parent was asking for. It seemed that they were implying we needed to catch every pre-infection, and the lack of development of highly sensitive tests for pre-infection was evidence of some negligence. I was arguing against developing "T-cell tests" for prior COVID infection.

My comment was not intended to be an argument against any testing for pre-infection; I think the rationale for that is pretty solid, but I think that the regulatory establishment needs to be prepared to inform people that they might not be able to prove their previous infection and in that case they should get vaccinated.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by mthoms on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:20PM (#28533963)
Not true to my knowledge. Sorry. - A Canadian.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by gizmondo on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @08:27PM (#28533468)
You should at least account for additional sick days, tens of millions of them.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by BHSPitMonkey on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:25PM (#28534009)
Can you be sure the temporary side effects (caused by the engagement of the immune system) wouldn't be diminished for people with existing immunity? It might not be as much of a concern.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by jjeaff on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:01PM (#28560355)
I believe one of the major studies that found that natural immunity was better than the Pfizer shot alone also found that natural immunity plus the shot was better still.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by gizmondo on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:56AM (#28536805)
I can't be sure, could go either way. Remember for instance that the second dose causes on average worse side effects.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by AuryGlenz on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:12PM (#28531309)
I had a friend think he had it 3 times (and the third time was probably legitimate). The symptoms the first two times? Typical cold symptoms. No fever. No major cough. No real loss of taste. I had another friend do the same thing.

This was back before tests were widely available. I have genuinely had it twice myself, but people largely have though for the past two years that if they were sick it was COVID.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ergocoder on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @10:45PM (#28534620)
Then, say that instead of lying that natural immunity doesn't work.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by rpmisms on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:53PM (#28534250)
This is a reasonable concern. My wife had it and got the test to prove it, I also had it and did not get tested, but considering that she was asymptomatic, and we continued all normal activities, as well as quarantining together, it would be silly to question if I had it.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by TrevorJ on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:38PM (#28531721)
Any serious policy which brings natural immunity into the fold would include the need for an actual medical diagnosis. I don't see the issue to raise to be a valid one because there are easy solutions.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by TimTheTinker on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @06:41PM (#28532501)
Serum tests are currently being used in the UK and other places. They can be taken up to 180 days after one has been infected.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by anonAndOn on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:08PM (#28531252)
>Took a serology test and found out that I had not had it.

How soon after you were ill? Aren't the antibodies nigh undetectable XX weeks after you recover?

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by alecst on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:22PM (#28531490)
IgG antibodies linger for a while, like months or longer. It’s a quick way of telling whether your vaccine worked, by just getting an antibody test.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by cdolan on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:23PM (#28533994)
What if you do have a positive test in your history?
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by sschueller on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @05:02PM (#28531139)
Interesting.

Does the US now have a digital verifiable certificate system for tested or previously infected as well as vaccinated or is it still a piece of paper?

Without this you have to just vaccinate everyone because there is no other way to manage it.