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Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by ilamont on Monday September 13, 2021 @03:44PM (#28515853)
If Tesla can activate their own showrooms in more reservations across the U.S. and drive a stake through the heart of third-party dealerships, that's a positive development.

I hope that Tesla (and other auto manufacturers) can go one step further and provide lasting, meaningful employment and other opportunities to local residents in the reservations. Casinos often fail or extract exploitative concessions and demands on local tribes.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by URSpider94 on Monday September 13, 2021 @04:00PM (#28516053)
They don’t have to do this in most states. Only a few states have laws against selling cars factory-direct.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by lotsofpulp on Monday September 13, 2021 @04:44PM (#28516639)
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cant-buy-tesla-states-1613182...

As of Oct 2018.

>Where Tesla is banned

>Here are those states: Alabama, Arkansas, Connecticut, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, and Texas.

>Then there are nine states that limit the number of dealerships Tesla can open: Colorado (limit: one), North Carolina (one), Virginia (two), Georgia (five), Maryland (four), New Jersey (four), New York (five), Ohio (three), Pennsylvania (five).

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by delecti on Monday September 13, 2021 @04:57PM (#28516790)
If my count is correct, that's a full half of states in total. And the states in the second group are all large enough that it's a meaningful limit to be only allowed a handful. For comparison, there are 7 Toyota dealerships just between the Denver and Boulder Colorado areas (using their "find a dealer" tool makes it hard to be more thorough than that).
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by KingMachiavelli on Monday September 13, 2021 @06:27PM (#28517737)
In Colorado there is no limit as of 2020 for Tesla. Any EV-only manufacture is allowed to direct sell in CO.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by jillesvangurp on Monday September 13, 2021 @05:22PM (#28517054)
I'm guessing the Texas situation might change given how much Tesla and SpaceX are investing in Texas right now.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by Robotbeat on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @01:13AM (#28520500)
North and South Dakota have big reservations.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by protomyth on Monday September 13, 2021 @05:55PM (#28517385)
The one problem is many reservations are nowhere near cities. The federal government tended to want to put Native Americans on land away from the settlers.

The other problem is how the tribe implemented its TERO (Tribal Employment Rights Ordinance or Office) rules. They can often be particularly odious to business ventures on the reservation.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by beambot on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @01:55AM (#28520773)
Can tribes create embassies? This sounds like a great boon to tribal economies: Buy land, turn into embassy (sovereign land), lease building to Tesla for dealership, profit.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by protomyth on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:18PM (#28533936)
The Navajo Nation has one in DC, but its not really a true embassy with all the diplomatic privileges and it isn't considered part of the tribal land.

As to adding land, its complicated https://www.bia.gov/bia/ots https://www.fns.usda.gov/fdpir/distinction-between-reservati...

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:43PM (#28534167)
> Can tribes create embassies?

No. Just as US states can't (tribal “sovereignty” is even farther from that of independent states than that of US states is.)

> Buy land, turn into embassy

Even for entities that can create embassies, that's not how they are created. You can't just acquire fee simple title and then at-will promote it to embassy status.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by rootusrootus on Monday September 13, 2021 @06:32PM (#28517783)
> drive a stake through the heart of third-party dealerships, that's a positive development.

For Tesla to kill third-party dealers, they'd have to do everything third-party dealers do, and then they'd be indistinguishable from third-party dealers.

It's fashionable to think Tesla has the Better Way and that auto dealers are universally bad, but consumers largely don't agree.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by devnulll on Monday September 13, 2021 @06:51PM (#28517958)
I'm probably in the Minority here, but I prefer the franchised dealer model over Tesla's for 2 reasons:

1. When I've a Tesla problem, they simply don't respond. They don't answer emails. They don't answer the phone. They don't return calls. It's literally impossible to remedy a problem. It took 6 months of unbelievable frustration to resolve an obviously incorrect lease issue ("You owe X.", "No, I already paid. Here are the receipts."). This same issue with a BMW, Porsche, or Lexus is resolved in 2 minutes in a normal model.

2. The franchise model - at a maco level - keeps more money locally. I like money staying local, seeing kids sports teams sponsored by Bob's Ford, and generally support anything that promotes a broader distribution of wealth. The extraction of wealth out of a community and simply concentrated up to the already mega-wealthy disturbing. This is Standard Oil putting local gas stations out of business by price dumping, only to later swoop in unchallenged.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by edmccard on Monday September 13, 2021 @07:36PM (#28518297)
>I like money staying local, seeing kids sports teams sponsored by Bob's Ford

In theory that sponsorship money could stay local, if the people who saved money by buying cars direct from Ford gave it personally to the local sports teams instead of giving it to Bob first.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by chii on Monday September 13, 2021 @09:56PM (#28519292)
bob sponsors a kids sports team to advertise the local dealership to the parents.

tesla's advertising campaign is unlikely to sponsor a local sports team, because the scale is too small and there's too many local sports teams for a corporate to deal with.

The parents themselves will not see value in doing a local sports team sponsorship - they might donate just to keep it alive, but if that was possible, the sports team would not have needed sponsorship in the first place!

Under no scenario would the parents who saved some money from buying a car would give that savings to the local sports team the same way a sponsor would.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by beambot on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @01:59AM (#28520811)
If only there was some way to collect money from car sales & use it to maintain local youth programs. Or better yet: A percentage of every transaction. We could call it "sales tax." ;)
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by chii on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @03:01AM (#28521264)
and yet, a lot of people are opposed to sales tax due to it's regressive nature (they tax the poor proportionally more than the rich - which then is "fixed" up by adding exemptions to sales tax for goods that the gov't considers the poor to need, such as food etc).
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by jstanley on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @02:56AM (#28521234)
> I like money staying local

If Ford sells cars for $5k, and Bob's Ford sells cars for $6k, then when you buy a car from Bob, he has $1k left over. That's $1k of money that "stays local".

Alternatively, if you buy it from Ford for $5k, you have $1k left over. That's $1k of money that "stays local".

What's the difference? Why would you rather fund Bob than keep the extra yourself?

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by yupper32 on Monday September 13, 2021 @06:37PM (#28517816)
> It's fashionable to think Tesla has the Better Way and that auto dealers are universally bad, but consumers largely don't agree.

There wouldn't need to be laws restricting Tesla from selling direct to consumer if that was the case.

Let the consumer decide what they want.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by Splendor on Monday September 13, 2021 @06:44PM (#28517880)
> There wouldn't need to be laws restricting Tesla from selling direct to consumer if that was the case.

That's just not true. Consumers wouldn't have a choice if an automaker was allowed to make their new vehicles only available from a direct showroom.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by yupper32 on Monday September 13, 2021 @06:49PM (#28517938)
Sorry what value does a third party showroom provide that a direct showroom wouldn't?

And currently car companies compete with each other. If one saw third party showrooms as something the consumer wants, then they would continue doing it to compete.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by Splendor on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @03:31PM (#28529841)
You seem to have missed the part of my comment where I said "if an automaker was allowed to make their new vehicles only available from a direct showroom". If the automaker didn't allow other dealers to sell new vehicles, they wouldn't be able to compete. It's very simple.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by yupper32 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @11:56PM (#28535090)
I don't understand what you're saying.

Do you think manufacturers of products should be forced to sell items to any business?

The competition that matters is against other automakers.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by willcipriano on Monday September 13, 2021 @07:32PM (#28518269)
Dealers could buy the cars at retail and then mark the cars up for the cost of their value add, if it's actually worthwhile to customers they have nothing to worry about.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by aynyc on Monday September 13, 2021 @07:55PM (#28518418)
That becomes ticket scalping problem. The hottest cars would get bough up by dealerships and charge a huge markup.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by bialpio on Monday September 13, 2021 @08:08PM (#28518525)
Why is it a problem? If they were charging more than MSRP and still move the cars, it means that the market values the cars at a higher rate than MSRP and someone can make money off of the difference - isn't that the whole point of capitalism?
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by fragmede on Monday September 13, 2021 @09:14PM (#28519002)
How's that someone get chosen though? Quality of their work? Level of effort they put in? How much money they have? Outright bribes? Threats of violence?

Where car dealerships are passed down from father to son, for generations, and is locally one of the most powerful organizations, to the point that competition is outright prohibited, it's not a free market, which is one of the cornerstones of capitalism.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by bialpio on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @12:20AM (#28520169)
You open up a competing car dealership on the opposite side of the street and sell for cheaper (assuming that you have access to wholesale prices from the car manufacturer - that is the part that needs to be regulated).
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by oh_sigh on Monday September 13, 2021 @06:48PM (#28517925)
They would have a choice of buying one of the numerous other car brands out there.

I don't have a choice when it comes to buying a tesla - am I losing out as a consumer?

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by ajross on Monday September 13, 2021 @08:40PM (#28518778)
> For Tesla to kill third-party dealers, they'd have to do everything third-party dealers do, and then they'd be indistinguishable from third-party dealers.

What do third-party dealers do that Tesla does not?

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by dreamcompiler on Monday September 13, 2021 @09:25PM (#28519085)
I suspect part of Tesla's plan is to build solar power facilities on the reservations, which would be great for the tribes if they can sell the power to the grid. (The tribes in NM and AZ have a tremendous solar resource.) Transmission lines would be the potential holdup with that plan though.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by encryptluks2 on Monday September 13, 2021 @08:40PM (#28518772)
Yes, positive. Now all businesses can start using reservations to circumvent laws and regulations, and before you know it that reservation land just becomes the latest trend in ways for America to further destroy Native American traditions and prosperity. Not even to mention that most tribes now operate essentially corrupt pyramid organizations where the money often doesn't flow down and many tribe members never see any of the profits or benefits.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by Robotbeat on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @01:15AM (#28520515)
That’s denying the fact that Native American nations have agency and they welcomed this development. L
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by encryptluks2 on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @02:32AM (#28521058)
Who do you think is making these decisions at various tribes? There is corruption throughout in all systems.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by Robotbeat on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @09:06AM (#28524143)
They elect their leadership. You really saying that their decisions are illegitimate? That they cannot govern themselves?
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by MomoXenosaga on Monday September 13, 2021 @04:24PM (#28516394)
Yes but thanks to Andrew Jackson most reservations are in the flyover states in the middle of nowhere far away from the big metro areas. So I'm not sure if it will matter much.

I hazard a guess that Tesla's are sold on the East and West coast.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by ethagknight on Monday September 13, 2021 @04:57PM (#28516780)
This is wrong, reservations or tribals lands are sometimes within the greater MSA of some cities or otherwise adjacent to populous areas, (Tulsa is the most prominent example, Kansas City, south Florida Miami area, Mobile AL, Charlotte NC to list a few). In the context of the dealership laws, these are significant exceptions.

Of the 10 states with outright bans on manufacturer sales, all but Texas and West Virginia have tribal lands that theoretically could be used as a helpful loophole to this protectionism. Maybe not always Tesla’s the first choice of location, but a 50 mi drive beats a 300 mile drive, and sufficient to break the teeth of these laws.

Please dont be dismissive of “flyover states.” The lack of dealerships and service centers certainly impairs the sales process, and then California’s extremely generous (and unnecessary?) EV incentive gives many people from other states an incentive jump through some hoops and papering to purchase and title their vehicle there.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by rascul on Monday September 13, 2021 @09:03PM (#28518922)
Tulsa may not be the best example of tribal lands being near a major city, as it looks like a Supreme Court case last year found that much of Oklahoma (including Tulsa) is supposed to actually be tribal lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGirt_v._Oklahoma

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by ethagknight on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @07:36AM (#28523150)
Yep it’s a fascinating case of “well, what happens now?” and thanks for linking. But I think it only supports my primary point that some cities are intermingled with tribal lands and that these lands aren’t “just in the middle of nowhere.”
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by alasdair_ on Monday September 13, 2021 @07:22PM (#28518198)
> Please dont be dismissive of “flyover states.”

Especially since the Wright brothers are from a flyover state. No one would be "flying over" without them.

Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by perl4ever on Monday September 13, 2021 @04:28PM (#28516453)
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by pengaru on Monday September 13, 2021 @04:34PM (#28516515)
There's a small res casino practically inside Joshua Tree National Park at 29 Palms.
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by JaggedJax on Monday September 13, 2021 @06:15PM (#28517603)
With a Tesla Supercharger at it!
Re:Tesla opens a center on Native American land, selling car... by stumpedonalog on Monday September 13, 2021 @04:44PM (#28516641)
Hmm… the Salt River reservation is nearly downtown Phoenix. It covers like a fourth of the metro area.