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Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by MarkusWandel on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:01AM (#28480889)
I recently bought a 32" 4K monitor. Two different models were at at that point inexpensive enough to tempt me. A smart one, and different brand, dumb one for $50 more. I bought the latter. I'm happy.

The market decides, right? What is actually happening here?

1. Most people actually like this overdone gimmickry?

2. Most people think they will like it, buy it and then get sick of it? Thus people like me, who seek out the ungimmicked product, are not a significant market force?

3. Most people would prefer not to have it, but due to a free market failure, the ungimmicked product just isn't available any more?

The gimmicks are everywhere. We have a basic "Instant Pot" pressure cooker. It has just the right amount of electronic smarts. A few button presses to cook a roast to completion in about an hour, and walk away. It beeps when it's done. With later models you see an almost obsessive drive to load them up with more features, few of which anyone will ever use.

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by codesections on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:12AM (#28481036)
> 3. Most people would prefer not to have it, but due to a free market failure, the ungimmicked product just isn't available any more?

No, I'd go with (4) people would prefer not to have it, but companies know that they can monitize the data they collect[0] and thus are willing to offer a discount that's large enough to get people (who may or may not know about the data collection) to buy the smart™ version.

[0]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2019/02/21/w...

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by curryst on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:10AM (#28481812)
Nail on the head.

I think the gimmickry exists as a facade to give them a reason to slap enough electronics in a device to be able to harvest data, and to piggyback off the user's internet for "updates". If you're going to put a microphone in a fridge, people are going to want to know why, so you need some kind of gimmick that allegedly uses it so you don't have to admit it's mostly there for data harvesting.

They are cheaper (in dollars), which does appeal to consumers. Manufacturers sell the data and discount the merchandise.

Tangential, but I'm curious what the margins on stuff like smart-fridges are. It seems like competition would drive us to a point where smart appliances are sold for at or below cost, with profits coming from selling data. It's crazy to me that LG or Maytag could become a data vendor that just so happens to sell appliances, because the data has to come from somewhere.

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by caymanjim on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:51AM (#28481549)
This, and also people simply don't know. Your average consumer buying a TV has no idea what metrics the device is capturing and sharing, or that by connecting it to the Internet, they're not just receiving information, they're sending it. Even cynical/paranoid tech-savvy people are caught off guard when real-time personalized ads start showing up in the on-screen menus of their Internet-connected devices, and would be annoyed to know that their usage patterns are monitored even when they aren't explicitly using an Internet service like Netflix.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by ljm on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:02AM (#28481708)
5) people can't afford the unburdened tech so they will go for the lowest-priced/highest reviewed option and nothing else matters
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by dylan604 on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:53AM (#28482410)
5-rev) People don't know about and/or care about tracking/telemetry, and do not understand that the data collected earns the manufacture additional income. They only see price and highly manipulated revies, then make their purchase.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by increscent on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:29AM (#28482941)
Would it be possible to create a business where you:

* Buy the cheap hardware at wholesale prices

* Strip the surveillance tech and/or re-flash the firmware

* Sell the "dumb" product for the same price as the "smart" one

In this case, the "smart" vendor would likely lose money if they're selling below cost. So the only difficulty would be a legal one... I'm not sure if it's legal to buy a product, modify it, and then re-sell it.

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by b3morales on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:54AM (#28483291)
I feel certain there was a court case about this, but can't remember it. It's similar to the company that re-sold edited versions of popular movies.

Doing this as a sale, for electronics, you'd probably fall afoul of certification problems (e.g. whatever boxes Underwriters Lab had ticked wouldn't apply to the modified version). There would be branding issues. And regardless of whether it turned out to be legal, you'd 100% draw a lawsuit from the original manufacturer.

If it were to work out at all, this would probably have to be done in a way that (legally at least) the customer is not buying the device modified from you. They would have to purchase the device first, then bring it to you to modify, for which you charge a fee. Even then you'd probably still get sued.

Not a lawyer, though, so this is just speculation based on following tech over the years.

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by thomastjeffery on Friday September 10, 2021 @01:42PM (#28484859)
This would be the same action as installing Linux on a PS3 or editing the firmware on a John Deere tractor.

It's both practically unfeasable for the average consumer, and a legal risk for whoever manages to do it.

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by satellite2 on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:47AM (#28481499)
I would like to buy a smart scale because I think the data it provides would be really useful to me.

So in my case the smart gimmick really is the feature I want.

Unfortunately I price my weight data very differently than they do, so unless they pay me multiple tens of thousands of dollars I would not agree for it to send the data it collect.

Unfortunately there is no such smart scale.

So I would add to your list a 5) paying with actual money for smart appliances that don't snitch

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by snthd on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:53AM (#28481578)
https://github.com/oliexdev/openScale/wiki/Supported-scales-...

(Not that it detracts from your point about the market).

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by satellite2 on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:59AM (#28481666)
That's great! Thank God there is open source.

It's funny how open source started as "the manufacturer is too lazy to support my use case" and now is becoming "the manufacturer is too greedy / cannot be trusted"

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by only_as_i_fall on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:05AM (#28481754)
The mi scales can be set up to have smart features locally.

Only caveat is that you need to use the app for initial setup and of course this assumes there isn't any kind of undisclosed antenna nonsense.

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by Spooky23 on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:49AM (#28481517)
People line up at 4AM to get a garbage TV from Walmart on Black Friday. It’s a commodity and people only care about price.

It’s a crowded marketplace, and the only way to eke out margin is better quality and/or features. For TVs, people in general give no shits about panel quality/color/etc, and volume shipment of better stuff is costly. But people love features, and bolting on software enhances margins at no or low cost.

Cooking gear is the same.

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by only_as_i_fall on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:07AM (#28481788)
Smart TV baffle me because their software is always garbage and even non-tech people can tell its garbage. I've never seen someone happy with the OS in their television and most people use an external box anyway. Yet every TV must be wifi compatible with a bunch of shifty streaming apps bolted on.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by Spooky23 on Friday September 10, 2021 @12:32PM (#28483863)
Remember that TV is for everyone. Think of the dumbest person you know - the dumbest person that guy knows also has a TV.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by leetcrew on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:43AM (#28481440)
what exactly is a "smart" monitor? I'm familiar with smart TVs, but I can't see how any of those features could be useful in a screen that I plug directly into a computer.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by JasonFruit on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:50AM (#28481527)
The advantage is that the monitor provides the sort of usage data the company can sell to others. To be clear, it's not an advantage to you.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by aix1 on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:56AM (#28481622)
Could you give some concrete examples of the types of data that an existing smart monitor (not a TV) collects and sells to others? (Ideally also naming the manufacture and the device.)
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by JasonFruit on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:46AM (#28482292)
Five years ago when I last looked into it, a "smart monitor" was a monitor running a custom Android setup that could do whatever a smart TV or tablet could do. The possibilities for data collection are practically unlimited, and recent experiences with smart TV updates putting ads where no ads were before show that potential matters; it's on the basis of potential that I'm against it, not because I have detailed knowledge of what's being done now.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by aix1 on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:57AM (#28482474)
How would such a "smart monitor" connect to the Internet? Wouldn't that require network hardware not commonly found in monitors as well as some cooperation from the owner (to hook up the monitor to their network, with unclear benefits)?
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by JasonFruit on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:51PM (#28485631)
I'm really not sure how that works, since you're asking me. The mechanics of allowing your monitor to connect to the internet is irrelevant to any sane life, as far as I can see. I can see no use case for running Netflix, Spotify, or any similar application on your monitor that would be an improvement over running it on the attached computer, but I'm not really the target audience.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by _archon_ on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:23AM (#28482844)
HDMI can pass-through communications. Wireless is also a possibility. "Thank you for plugging me in! Please enter network credentials so I can update myself!"
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by zzo38computer on Friday September 10, 2021 @12:22PM (#28483759)
I just dislike HDMI for a lot of reasons. That is one problem. Another problem is HDCP. Those aren't the only ones. I would prefer to connect audio and video separately. HDMI doesn't have captions. etc.

Due to this, I have my own specifications (not fully written, although I did write a lot of it), which are much simpler than HDMI. (It has digital video (with no inherent picture size limit, although implementations would be limited), analog audio, and an optional IMIDI (which is a two way command stream; it is safe to avoid connecting it). The IMIDI can be used for captions as well as for control, and can also be used with IR, as well as with the special IMIDI port.) (These would be fully free, although there may be trademark licenses (perhaps to avoid many of the problems that HDMI and others have) but no other restrictions.)

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by Moto7451 on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:59AM (#28481668)
I use a Smart TV as a monitor. I also have a walk/run treadmill where the guards fold down to work as a walking desk treadmill. When I want to get a run in I switch my monitor to the TV side, pull the treadmill out a foot, pull the guard up, and run a 5K.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by MarkusWandel on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:12PM (#28485832)
The one I didn't buy was a Samsung M7
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by armenarmen on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:22AM (#28481163)
Could you please share a link to the dumb one you ended up purchasing?
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by turtlebits on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:43AM (#28481438)
I’ve actually never seen a “smart” monitor.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by Mikeb85 on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:56AM (#28483336)
Considering they're usually attached to 'smart' devices, curious what extra features it could have...
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by sangnoir on Friday September 10, 2021 @12:04PM (#28483466)
I'd have thought manufacturers would put the smarts in the driver...
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by thekingofravens on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:30AM (#28481256)
Yeah there is a lot of interest in knowing what dumb models exist for 4k
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by mhh__ on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:51AM (#28483252)
I have a BenQ 32inch 4K thing. It was about £350.

Just get that. If you care about the panel a lot then you'll have to pay more, I think refresh rates are out of the question

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by MarkusWandel on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:13PM (#28485850)
The one I did get was an LG UN550
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by corobo on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:03AM (#28482567)
I think it's more that people outside of HN don't really care about their privacy if it's not visibly being violated. From there it's cheapest and biggest wins
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by freedomben on Friday September 10, 2021 @11:15AM (#28482719)
I talk to a lot of them about privacy, and nearly all of them do care. They just have no idea what's happening, and after I tell them, they have no idea how to stop it and give up. Happens every time.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by BugWatch on Sunday September 12, 2021 @07:12AM (#28500106)
I have a friend who "just doesn't care that much about it"... to the amount that it is straining my ability to continue the friendship (unbeknownst to him). (He's not a techy person, and is in(to?) Apple's walled-off gardens.)

And, because of people like him, anti-privacy micro steps are continuously made, and Overton windows slowly but continually shifts... until one moment when he/they start to care, but then it's too late. And then they're usually greatly surprised and astonished that "that's allowed?!".

Yeah, it is, buddy, it is. Because you "just didn't care that much". Now you have to live with consequences that the rest of who "did care" have lived (and fought) with since the [metaphorical] beginning.

Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by corobo on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:06PM (#28485121)
If we're just using anecdata I'm sticking with mine
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by SuoDuanDao on Friday September 10, 2021 @09:15AM (#28481078)
I would guess that the company believes it can extract ($50+cost of the gimmickry) from the people who buy the gimmicky product.
Re:Our fridge just emailed us to say we opened its door too ... by dylan604 on Friday September 10, 2021 @10:56AM (#28482456)
>$50+cost of the gimmickry

at scale, I'd venture to guess the cost of the gimmickry rounds to 0.