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Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by sgregnt on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:03AM (#28415720)
AFAIK The core is freedom, i.e. a lack of coercion of any kind.

If, to be yourself, you need to claim someone else property, then Libertrarians would say it goes against the core principles of liberty, because to execute this claim you exercise coertion.

But as long as you do not exert coercion on no one else, you're free to be yourself anyway you like.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by notacoward on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:14PM (#28421366)
> lack of coercion of any kind

In practice, it means lack of government coercion because that's the easiest kind to oppose. Weaken government too much, and other forms of coercion will come to the fore. Changing that would require changing human nature though, so most libertarians prefer to turn a blind eye to it.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by sgregnt on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @04:01PM (#28462304)
I'm not sure why you think government is easier to oppose. Or what it has to do with the core principles of Libertarianism.

In any case, of cause, the reality is much more complicated, if there is a dispute over property rights or a form of coercion you go to court to decide who is right and who is wrong. Libertarianism is not anarchism. At the same time, in spite of all the complications of the real world, there is a clear difference in ideology between libertarianism and social democracy, for example. And one can claim the difference stems from the core principle where the two worldviews differ in certain values.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by notacoward on Thursday September 09, 2021 @06:26PM (#28475392)
Ah yes, the one form of coercion libertarians endorse - via the courts. I'm just not even going to address all the reasons that can't work and/or just changes the details of coercion. Others have done so, more or less eloquently, zillions of times. It always falls on intentionally deaf ears. Good day.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by vidarh on Saturday September 04, 2021 @01:44PM (#28417241)
Property rights themselves depends on the use of coercion to deny others access and use.

It's a core inconsistency of right-libertarianism that the artificial creation of property rights are taken as an exception that is elevated to something almost holy.

But because of the coercive nature of property rights, there isn't a country on earth that doesn't have huge carveouts to reduce their applicability. Ranging from zoning, to regulations of what you can do on your land to access rights and easements.

Some more than others. E.g. in Norway where I grew up, a private property owner can't deny you access to walk through forests or other non-urban land, nor can they deny you the right to forage or camp, as long as you're a certain distance from dwellings, as such restrictions have always been seen as undue restrictions on the liberties of the public to the point where it was for a long time the only uncodified area of Norwegian law, as it was seen as so inherently obvious it didn't need to be. Sweden has similar rights in their constitution.

But left-libertarians reject property rights entirely because they see it as entirely incompatible with liberty to apply coercion to exercise a claim of land at all by denying others access.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by cloudfifty on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:12AM (#28415797)
There nothing "freedom" about some sole family owning the only water supply generation after generation or whatever dystopian scenario that libertarianism likely would bring about. In practice it's just a dismantling of democracy in favour of feudalistic power through wealth and property.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by lovich on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:30AM (#28415945)
No don’t you see, by virtue of the free market, someone will innovate around the need for water!

Then they will hold a monopoly over necessary resources for a few generations until someone innovates around them.

You have to realize it’s a good thing to see others go without just to make sure I never have to share my excess wealth /s

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by vlunkr on Saturday September 04, 2021 @12:00PM (#28416219)
That's a nice strawman you've got. I think what you're describing is anarchy.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by vidarh on Saturday September 04, 2021 @01:08PM (#28416849)
The origin of libertarianism is Dejacque, who considered Proudhon of "property is theft" fame to be a "moderate anarchist, liberal, but not libertarian" for not going far enough.

He was an anarcho-communist and the first publisher of libertarian political texts.

Right-wing libertarianism is about a century younger, and e.g. people like Rothbard very intentionally tried to find common ground between what he saw as the anti-authoritarian parts of the left and the right, but was largely rebuffed by the left, where left-libertarians, many of whom are anarchists, saw the right-libertarian obsession with property rights as fundamentally incompatible with the goal of maximising liberty.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by infamia on Saturday September 04, 2021 @08:27PM (#28420686)
> Right-wing libertarianism is about a century younger

How can you make this claim when Frederick Bastiat was a contemporary of Dejacque's? Many of today's leading libertarian-minded thinkers (Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, etc.) consider Bastiat core to their beliefs and you can hear Bastiat's writings echoed in their works.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by vidarh on Sunday September 05, 2021 @11:03AM (#28424854)
I can make this claim because Dejacque was the first to use the term to describe an ideology (here is the very first use [1], and here's a page on Dejacque's newspaper Le Libertaire[2]), and because when the term was introduced into right-wing anti-authoritarianism it was with explicit knowledge that it was co-opting the term as it had then been used for a century by the left.

Libertarianism as such was founded as a rejection of "moderate" anarchism, and a more extensive rejection of authority than that of Proudhon, along with an absolute rejection of property rights as oppressive.

That he was later adopted by some right-wing libertarians does not mean he invented libertarianism. Many people toyed with similar ideas. Dejacque was the person who gave it a name and promoted it as an explicit ideology.

You'll also not that Bastiat did not take things nearly as far as Dejacque did. E.g. Bastiat argued in Justice and Fraternity even for limited state provided welfare, so he did not even go as far as many right-libertarians. But whatever the size, he argues for a state, not the total dismantling of the state, which was the origin of libertarianism.

As such, Bastiat looks libertarian to right-libertarians because they took left-wing libertarianism and gutted the commitment to liberty of Dejacque to add in state restrictions on liberty to enable property, and in doing so shifted the ideology far to the right. But he's far less libertarian by its original definition than e.g. an anarchist like Proudhon. To left-libertarians he's just another statist.

[1] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/joseph-dejacque-on-t...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Libertaire

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by infamia on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @12:50AM (#28453162)
Bastiat was a so-called right-wing libertarian in all but name only. Rothbard borrowed very liberally from Bastiat (no pun intended).

I don't recall reading anything like state provided welfare in Justice and Fraternity. It has been a very long time since I've read it, but that sounds antithetical to some of his other writings which I've re-read more recently. I would be curious to see the specific passage.

To my knowledge, communal arrangements (like Dejacque seemingly favors) have not proven practical outside of relatively small communities.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by cloudfifty on Saturday September 04, 2021 @12:03PM (#28416248)
What exactly in essentially removing the state but keeping private property precludes this scenario?
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by idroveatrain on Saturday September 04, 2021 @01:10PM (#28416866)
If it's not evident, the conception and enforcement of private property writ large is established by governmental coercion. Thus monopolization really only occurs through that force, and is also the predominate competitor for monopolization.

You've got a silly proconception that mankind is endemically neurotic. Virtually every interaction you make throughout the day is self-organized, I'd conjecture the vast majority of it is done without direct, indirect, or conditioned coercion, and unsupervised. Multiply this by 7bn. That is to say that most all hierarchical authority isn't even preventative, and is almost exclusively reactionary, which further extends into reasoning that the "order" promised by the institutions is largely illusory outside of the directives offered, which could just as well be derived through any other system.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by Geee on Saturday September 04, 2021 @12:41PM (#28416583)
Dystopia? The wealthiest and most successful nations are built on the principles of classical liberalism / libertarianism.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by vidarh on Saturday September 04, 2021 @01:04PM (#28416815)
On which of them? Classical liberalism and libertarianism, be it left- or right-libertarianism are nothing alike.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by Geee on Saturday September 04, 2021 @06:29PM (#28419952)
Libertarianism upholds the same principles of individual liberties. Libertarianism is also the closest thing to what's called liberalism internationally. In the US, liberalism was renamed to libertarianism.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by handrous on Saturday September 04, 2021 @07:40PM (#28420433)
You'd have to be using these terms in a non-standard way, for that to be true. Some common forms of libertarianism are under the umbrella of liberalism, or part of its family, if you like, but they are not identical.
Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by Geee on Saturday September 04, 2021 @09:40PM (#28421003)
This explains the connection to classical liberalism and the confusion of these terms pretty well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_in_the_United_S...

You see that historically libertarianism follows directly from classical liberalism. They just changed the name.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by handrous on Saturday September 04, 2021 @11:36PM (#28421446)
Classical liberalism is a retrospective name for one thread of liberalism. It does not—and this is important—encompass all liberals before some date, but one branch, influenced by a set of thinkers and writers who are also counted among the influences of other branches. It has its own wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

and the broader thread, in context, is traced here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

One point that may make the distinction clear is that in this sentence, from the article you linked: "During the mid-20th century, many with Old Right or classical liberal beliefs began to describe themselves as libertarians." The "Old Right" were opponents of Roosevelt, who himself sits at the base of the branch of what the "Liberalism" entry calls "Modern Liberalism"—but both are under the tent of liberalism, as were others then and earlier whose views did not line up with libertarianism.

Liberalism was not renamed libertarianism, even just in the US, and that's certainly not what's meant by liberalism internationally.

Re:How did American “wokeness” jump from elite schools to ev... by Geee on Sunday September 05, 2021 @02:39PM (#28426593)
It's not the same, but it's probably the closest thing, because European liberals are advocates of less taxes, less government regulation and intervention, less welfare state, and in general oppose any kind of socialism and Keynesian economic policies. It's quite opposite of what 'liberals' in the US advocate for, when it comes to government role and economic policies.

'Liberalism' as used when refering to Democratic Party policies in the US, is generally refered as social democracy or social liberalism in Europe.

Here's another source from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_Unite...