However, if your outrage is actually about a states right to enforce a quarantine on potentially infected incoming travellers during a pandemic fullstop .... well my friend, that's a ship that has long since sailed - literally hundreds of years ago.

That is false dilemma. In free society law-abiding citizens are trusted to observe the law even without persistent surveillance.

We also do not carry persistent surveillance tool to control whether we do not steal or assault, so why not handle quarantine the same way?

Anecdotally, I received an automated speeding ticket in the mail today. I went 36 in a 30. I really try to be a good driver, and generally watch my speed, but apparently I didn’t that day. But was I confronted by the officer who clocked me? No, I was the only car in sight. I received high resolution photos of my car and video is available online for my review. If that’s not persistent surveillance, I don’t know what else to call it.

What you describe is what should be, but we are witnessing disturbing trends unfold.

for something like a pandemic, the public cannot be trusted to make a personal sacrifice for the public good.

As long as such surveillance is limited to such medical emergencies, and rescinded afterwards, it is acceptable. Of course, this requires that the citizens be vigilant, but the current protesting, and fear-mongering and misinformation is beyond just being vigilant, but is instead defying health orders and delaying the end of the pandemic. If that's not stupid, i dont know what is.

The government is made up from persons in the "public." If the public cannot be trusted to act in the public good, the government cannot be trusted to do so either either.

It sounds like your argument is towards some sort of authoritarianism / monarchy which removes power from the public so that someone can force them to act for the public good. I do admit you have a point that authoritarianism/monarchy has its advantages, and one is the ability to put a tighter control on populace undergoing a pandemic (short-sighted thinking is a fundamental weakness of democracies electing leaders for only a few years at a time).

that's a false equivalency.

An action on the part of the gov't does not equate to the "average" action of the general population. The very fact that there must be gov't mandated laws against stealing is evidence of this - otherwise, people would steal and loot!

Plenty of people opposed to the draft in war, and yet it must be done in the public good. The only saving grace, because of western democracy, is that any gov't who continue to flounder the power granted to them, would (ostensibly) get voted out. This doesn't happen in an authoritarian gov't - like china for example.

But people who claim mistrust of the public institutions are destroying that mechanism - leading to the very last US election, where some people are de-legitimizing the outcome because they believe that some "authoritarian" entity is forcing it upon them.

I dont know whether these people are stupid, or brainwashed by something.

People like stories that they can grasp in general, and populism as a political tactic provides an extremely simple narrative of a clear-cut "elite" group onto which almost any grievance can be projected as being caused by - and that makes it easy for people to paint themselves as heroic figures fighting evil and thus allow them to justify whatever means they use to get there.

And the effects of deprivation on people's health, cognition, mental health and relationships make it harder for people who are struggling to avoid embracing simple narratives that fit their biases. People who have everything and have never struggled a day in their life do the same after all, people are people at the end of the day.

Populism is the enemy of liberal democracy - and institutions in general - but the problem is that as a tactic it's easy and effective as a way of whipping people up as long as you don't care about and aren't affected by what happens after the angry mob is unleashed. Or if you're the rare true believer instead of being another cynical rabble-rouser.

Most people would probably say populism (political stances that emphasize the idea of "the people" and often juxtapose this group against "the elite" [wiki quote]) is pretty rational given the human condition of the modern US and the influences of our elite.

It doesn't, but in a truly democratic country it would.

>that's a false equivalency.

In a democracy the government is all drawn from public. The government of democracies is all members of public (save some essentially powerless queen/royalty as in UK). So no, it's not.

>The very fact that there must be gov't mandated laws against stealing is evidence of this - otherwise, people would steal and loot!

People do steal and loot under virtually every democratic government. Laws are mostly to tell you what happens if you do it, not to set up surveillance to invade you privacy to check that you don't (although I must admit this has been more common lately).

>Plenty of people opposed to the draft in war, and yet it must be done in the public good

Your words not mine. I vehemently disagree "it must be done." Our last draft was disregarded in a widespread fashion, and ultimately the dodgers were essentially pardoned because the government had to yield to the "average" action of the general populace.

>But people who claim mistrust of the public institutions are destroying that mechanism

The loss of trust in public institution are in large part a result in the fact they have destroyed the mechanism of their legitimacy, the constitution. We now live in a society where 4th amendment is void (drug dog can "alert" on your car/person and you can be searched at any time, and even patted down without even that). A policeman can shoot a woman in the middle of the night on a bogus warrant, and the only guy looking at prosecution will be the guy who missed (see: Breonna Taylor). I can be tossed in jail for 5-10 years if I decide to remove a brace from a pistol and put a stock on it instead (2nd amendment is dead). Same 5+ years if you own a pot leaf and a gun at the same time and did nothing else "wrong" (see: conviction of RussianFPS, although he did not get this much jail time).

Posse Comitatus Act is essentially dead as now our police force is essentially another military branch armed by relinquished items from the military and sees itself as a military like force for controlling the populace, complete with armored vehicles, machine guns, explosives, urban warfare type training, and virtual invulnerability from prosecution for killing the populace and special privileges the common citizen doesn't have like qualified immunity and the ability to own different weapons than civilians even when off duty.

Either the public institutions as they stand are powerless to stop the erosion of liberty and rights, or they are the ones perpetuating the erosion. Either way they are illegitimate.

Because the pandemy has a huge societal cost that can be alleviated quickly if you get people to follow the law.

If you get people to stop stealing or assaulting for a month using measures, it won't cause less stealing or assaulting afterward.

That's the problem. People are not obeying the law.

It doesn't matter. Enforcing the law is not my job. That is the police's job. They should do it, instead of trampling innocent people's freedoms.

We shouldn't expect police to do the impossible trying to enforce our Orwellian quarantine restrictions. We should eliminate the restrictions.

And yet a large percentage of the US still refuses to wear masks or vaccinate, effectively prolonging the pandemic they so loathe to begin with, and go against simple mask mandates for the sole reason they're laws in the first place.

So so much for that theory. We've proven it's not a rule, but a baseless fantasy.

We also had high mask use, fairly low deaths, and fewer restrictions than most of Europe.

That's an easy answer. Consequences.

When one single person not following the rules can force the entire state into a lockdown (as was the cause in NSW) the trade off makes a lot of sense.

As a person that had to stay in quarantine for going back home for the last weeks of my mothers life due terminal cancer, I had to stay 10 days locked in my home, even having countless tests, not even knowing if she would be alive and being told that they can make an exception for the funeral - so kind of them. We were treated like some sub-human criminals by the police, being called and checked (some friends who had their daughters coming from university back home had to come to the window every morning, all 4 members of the family to get "counted" by a police officer). What's funny is that 1 year before the pandemic my house was broken into, never heard back from the police, but it's good to see that they are doing their job in checking up on us, the virus criminals.

And yes requiring 14 day mandatory quarantine for interstate travel is insane. The virus is endemic. You all in Australia are struggling in futility against one of the strongest forces of nature, its virome. Most of the rest of the Western world is looking on in horror. Even writers at The Atlantic. Best of luck, though. Sincerely.

I can almost guarantee the infrastructure this is running on is USA owned AWS.

> You all in Australia are struggling in futility against one of the strongest forces of nature.

Well actually, most of the states in oz have delta either under control/trending down towards elimination again, or in the case of tazzy, totally eliminated. It's only NSW that's struggling (which co-incidentally is the state giving people the option of quarantining at home with the use of this app).

Personally, I'm from over the ditch in NZ. Our delta cases peaked at 84 a week or so back, down towards 28 today after two weeks of a pretty relaxed lockdown. Most of NZ is now out of the hard lockdown, and probably should be back to normal in another couple of weeks. I'm looking forward to yet another covid free summer, with no worries about masks, crowded sports stadiums and camp grounds or me/anyone I know personally getting the virus.

Yup, we're bound to catch it eventually I'm sure, but I'm looking forward to getting it much later when we have better treatments that don't involve horse worming medication. Treatment/mitigation is much better now than it was 18 months ago, and I'm sure in a year or so, it will be better still.

Actually it is South Australia, which is COVID free.

Right! And make sure you do everything possible to keep us out until it's safe. Don't let your politicians do stupid deals with ours that would make things worse for you/NZ (love the place). Yours I'm not sure about but ours are as slimy as they come.

Not just NSW, Victoria has officially given up as well.

Victorian Premier Dan Andrews said just yesterday covid zero is no longer possible.

Tasmania will receive a repatriation flight from the UK next week, 100 people have n to hotel quarantine in Hobart. I won’t be surprised if it leaks in to the community.

The vaccines we have are not sterilising. They don’t prevent infection nor transmission, looks like they only reduce the severity and transmission.

Australia has definitely lost this fight, the virus will spread to all states, it’s just a matter of time.

Quarantine is leaky, people will mit perfectly abide by restrictions.

But please, continue looking on in horror at us from (I'm assuming) America. Your post is a wonderful mix of condescending tone and factual inaccuracy, with the added cherry-on-top that you have absolutely moronic states like Florida "fighting for their freedoms" by banning mask mandates. This would be infuriating if it wasn't so painfully stupid.

Australia, despite being a wealthy country with strong ties to vaccine manufacturing nations, did not prioritize these vaccines and instead has relied on rolling lockdowns and other invasive measures.

Perhaps I misunderstood your point, but it appears that you are arguing that Australia preferred the option of rolling lockdowns?

When you have no vaccines available there are two options. Overload your hospital system or lockdown. Everyone would have preferred having vaccines when the US and the UK received theirs.

Furthermore, the state governments that are actually in charge of lockdowns, are not responsible for procuring the vaccines. The federal government were under minor scrutiny for making a mess of that. This reflects the media landscape in Australia that is dominated by NewsCorp.

I think most people in Australia would strongly agree our vaccine policy was a complete and utter disaster. Probably the most expensive mistake in Australia's history.

Yes, our federal government absolutely failed when it comes to vaccine supply. It is our state governments that have instituted lockdowns, because of this failure on behalf of the federal government, to squash cases and stop our hospital system from reaching breaking point.

Yes, our federal government screwed up, and I don't know anyone who doesn't agree with that point, but given that, and given the outcomes America experienced before vaccination was prevalent, it is the height of hubris and arrogance to suggest that you and the rest of the Western world (this "data" being pulled from where, exactly?) is "horrified at us".

Unlike many Americans, most Australians would prefer to yield to principle than to suicide over it. The pathological notion that your country has for so-called freedoms (which never really existed anyway) is something the world watches with aghast amazement—right, you don't see it as you're in the thick of it but the rest of the world does (the fact that we also speak a form of English is now a source of an embarrassment to us). (And it's now even worse since the Afghanistan fiasco—sorry I mean the Vietnam repeat exercise.)

Let's get a few facts straight: clearly you—along with many of your fellow countrymen—haven't a clue about what happened during earlier pandemics in the US. Right, you're clueless about your own US history in respect of previous pandemics or you'd be much more circumspect in your criticism of others. I would strongly suggest that you examine the rules, laws and regulations that were in place in the US during the 1918-20 Spanish Flu pandemic and you'll find that some of them would put anything we've done over here to shame! Go on—do a search, then read and learn!

Let me continue: I'd also suggest that you Americans had absolutely no qualms about quarantining Mary Mallon (Typhoid Mary) for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon. Her life must have been hell because of her forced incarceration. Your antiquated health system had no proper way of managing her so you just locked her up then let her rot until she died!

And more, let me quote "Quarantined for Life: The Tragic History of US Leprosy Colonies - Stripped of their most basic human rights, patients nonetheless built lives and communities": https://www.history.com/news/leprosy-colonies-us-quarantine. I've nothing to add as the story speaks for itself.

There's much more but I've proved my point.

Now to the local facts here. The fact that we were not strict enough in policing the disease is the reason that it got away from us. That we let international people in and some damn taxi driver idiot drove an infected aircrew to a hotel without protection started it all. If we'd implemented the strict quarantine measures that we had had in place in 1918-19 for the Spanish Flu then it would not have escaped anywhere near as easily.

"Most of the rest of the Western world is looking on in horror. Even writers at The Atlantic."

Oh yeah, if most of the rest of the world is looking at us then it's turned away from looking at you out of horror, we're comic relief by comparison.

Next factoid: the per capita death rate in the US leapfrogs over ours here in Australia by at least an order of magnitude. Why? Because millions of bloody-mined Americans won't wear masks or get vaccinated out of principle (lunacy). Right, they'd prefer to suffer COVID and likely die rather than to admit they're wrong—very grossly wrong (frankly it's sickening to watch it playing out like a tragic soap opera on our TVs every day—all this from the so-called leader of the free world). Even your president says 'it's now a pandemic of the unvaccinated.'

No wonder the Chinese are gloating and laughing themselves sick. If the whole horrible shemozzle weren't so utterly tragic then one would reckon we were watching an episode of the Keystone Cops.

Next time, do your research, get your facts right (I know that's a damned hard ask given that in the US the word 'fact' has come to mean anything or utterance that its utterer thinks it ought to be).

P.S. Keep the downvotes coming, they're further verifying my points!

Like a holy ascetic hermit mocking the commoners.

Things are not going back to normal, no matter how much we act like they are.

(I'm sorry I never studied psychology. I've always wanted to know why some people can state categorically that black is white or vise versa when the overwhelming evidence is to the contrary.) :-)

That's actually not correct. I don't expect you to believe it but you'd be able to ascertain that's it's incorrect if you read some of my earlier posts on the subject.

Several points, as I've said previously, I rather like lockdowns as they allow me time to do things that I've not time for otherwise - or time that I wouldn't normally be able to justify. Check for yourself (it's there in writing).

My main point is that I've precious little time for bloody-minded fools who: (a) deny science - that's to say the best advice available, (b) clearly haven't studied the facts - not even superficially so, (c) are acting in ways contrary to their own health and best interests and (d) their lack of concern for the health of others who do actually care. People who are knowingly prepared to infect others who may die as a consequence are a dangerous menace to society and throughout history we've locked them up - as I've mentioned Mary Mallon is a case in point (the tragedy of that case was how she was treated after she was locked up).

Throughout history - even going back to the Black Death/plague and before, people were expected to follow protocols - locked up in their houses etc. This is not a new requirement. So what gives the right of stupid people to do so now? None I'd suggest.

BTW, in response to the ludicrous, inaccurate and often dangerous memes circulating on Social Media and elsewhere, a colleague of mine coined the phrase "We've reached peak stupid". Not only do I concur but I'm sorry I didn't think of that myself. It says it all really.

Quarantine is voluntary. If you choose to leave it, you face the consequences.

This is a personal responsibility problem not a society wide problem.

Simple as.

What if you do not possess a smartphone? What choice do you have, then? Are you just forced into hotel quarantine or do they lend you a smartphone? (Genuine question.)

If you prefer, you are also able to use the app and stay home.

What is the span of temporary here ?