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Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by dang on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @07:16PM (#28374775)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28372706 and marked it off topic.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by UI_at_80x24 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:22PM (#28373110)
New Zealand's (as you describe it) "extreme lockdown" has worked. When dealing with a pandemic you are supposed to limit potential exposure, and their actions did that.

As a result NZ has had one of the lowest infection rates in the world. Also, those actions let them "return to normal" quicker then anywhere else.

It worked.

Perhaps you feel that the mid-evil practice of nailing the doors and windows shut and posting a guard outside of a quarantine house, would be more reasonable? Pray that the village stays safe while the sick were imprisoned?

People were inconvenienced. Nothing more.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by j8hn on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:36PM (#28373291)
The child poverty rate increased by 10%. I would say that an increase of children living in inhumane conditions is more than an inconvenience.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by catsncomputers on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:42PM (#28373371)
I can't seem to find anything to verify your 10% claim - all I can find is stats showing that child poverty actually went down.. Are you able to post a source for that?

EDIT: since my account has been rate-limited... The msn article below was released before the stats and is purely speculation. The stats before covid already indicate an increase, and NZ has long had fluctuating child poverty rates, which the current government is attempting to address. However it is essential to realise that this increase is largely driven by the effects of the previous government, and the housing and rental market - not the effects of Covid-19. https://www.cpag.org.nz/the-latest/current-statistics/latest...

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by j8hn on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:47PM (#28373442)
I've seen it mentioned in the past. Here is an article I was able to dig up.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/number-of-children-i...

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by j8hn on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:35PM (#28374000)
Here is the report from July 26, 2021.

https://www.cpag.org.nz/news/?m=202107

"An additional 18,000 children were probably pushed into poverty in the 12 months to March 2021, even without taking rising housing costs into account, according to new modelling in the report, entitled The first year of Covid-19: Initial outcomes of our collective care for low-income children in Aotearoa New Zealand"

"This increase in child poverty of around 10% comes at a time when property owners have seen their wealth rise at an accelerated rate," said McAllister. "Loss of income related to job loss was probably inevitable for many families; but loss of income to the point of inadequacy - or further inadequacy - was due to political decision-making.

"The Government avoided one massive health and economic crisis but it enabled another one - that of poverty, homelessness and inequality - to grow rapidly."

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by WalterBright on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:47PM (#28373439)
If it's true that Covid is not going away, but will be endemic, it'll sweep through New Zealand one way or another.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by gballan on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:14PM (#28373744)
Indeed, but timing is key: whether the sweep is before or after the population is substantially vaccinated.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by simplify on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:50PM (#28373470)
Can you explain how people were only "inconvenienced"? Is everyone in New Zealand a white collar worker? I don't know anything about it, I take it you live there?
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by verve_rat on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:18PM (#28373806)
They are not dead.

Sure, for people that can't work from home it has been harder. But Government support has been set at a level well above the unemployment benefit. That is paid to employers to pass on to staff so the employment relationship is continued with strong encouragement to pay at least 80% of the employees normally wages. While it has been hard for some it hasn't been impossible. There have been no reports of abnormal bankruptcy levels (business or personal) or mortgagee sales.

Some people have used the fact that the support is higher than the unemployment benefit as evidence that benefits are set too low.

In fact, some lower paid workers look forward to a lockdown as a 'covid holiday'. That has pissed a few people off.

But all of that is way, way better than asking why are thousands of Kiwis dead? Did my [Nan|Mum|Brother|best friend|insert other person you care about] really need to die, 'for the economy'?

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by rangitatanz on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:30PM (#28373938)
Most of the people upset about the lockdowns seem to be people living outside of New Zealand. Quick search shows that currently 85% of New Zealanders agree with the current lockdown approach. We've seen what it did to Australia by not properly locking down. People are paid a covid support wage subsidy through their business to ensure that they stay being paid.
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Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by swader999 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:59PM (#28373591)
Covid is somewhat better than driving in terms of risk to our younger generations and roughly on par with risk to our older and yet we go full stop for it.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by rangitatanz on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @05:06PM (#28385518)
"better" in that it's less risky to have covid than to drive? Might need a reference on that claim. My quick googling only thing I found a comparison to doing bomber runs over nazi Germany during ww2 for older generations.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by abraae on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:14PM (#28372978)
Nice way to ride your personal hobby horse into town.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by retrac on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:36PM (#28373290)
We should have slammed the international borders shut at the first sign of it, and placed any region with outbreaks into the strictest lockdown we could humanely devise. Lesson learned for next time. Too late for that for most of the world. Now we have to learn to live with it somehow.

But it worked for New Zealand. They're in a very odd position now. Domestically as long as they can keep it out, they could go completely back to normal. Except for international travel. (It's been mostly normal most of the time aside from that, from what I understand.)

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by dukeofdoom on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:44PM (#28373397)
I'm not sure you realize how much the world is connected now. Look up tanker ship traffic to realize how much things go back and forth. Locking up a country to outsiders is fantasy, and a terrible horrible idea. Even North Korea trades with anyone it can. Also, good luck securing the Southern Border. Retarding your economy, will cause far more death than the 1% claimed for Covid.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by retrac on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:40PM (#28374044)
Yes, that's the awkward position they're in.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by verve_rat on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:02PM (#28373624)
And I consider the American response to be 100% bat shit. How can you accept hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths? At peak you were having a 9/11 every day.

I just... don't get it?

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by catsncomputers on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:30PM (#28373204)
Since both countries have had issues with vaccine supply, both have extremely low vaccination rates. The lockdowns are an intermediary measure to prevent loss of life until vaccination rates are high enough to warrant leaving it.

Furthermore, the response has enabled New Zealanders to lead an almost completely normal life aside from the two lockdowns - going to work without even thinking about the necessity of masks or social distancing. Attending concerts without a fear of contracting Covid-19. Stadiums full of people when the US and other countries have been in limbo for 2 years now. Your idea of `insane` is quite bizarre to me.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by systemvoltage on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:14PM (#28372992)
Apparently, you're not allowed to go beyond 5km radius of your house. Can someone in Australia confirm the details of the lockdown?

Virus is here to stay for many years, if not decades. We're never going to eliminate it. It is time we push back on draconian measures in the name of covid.

Unrelated but I can't even go to bathroom in SF city because every restaurant, convenience store, gas station, etc. have an excuse to say that because of COVID restrictions, restrooms are closed. I was fine with Gov-mandated measures last year when we didn't have vaccines. But, I am turning against my own self from last year.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by aplummer on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:19PM (#28373060)
The 5km thing is real while the lockdown is in effect. Keep in mind it’s different to America, you get paid decent money from the state to stay at home.

Whether or not the ~20 000 lives saved from these lockdowns comes down to opinion in the end.

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Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by aplummer on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:42PM (#28373364)
Please don't strawman me, I didn't say I agree with the surveillance bill (I do not) and I don't live in Australia - my family does though.

It's a different country with a different set of tradeoffs, and is also a more free country than the United States across many important areas, which is why it rates higher in the Cato freedom index than the USA.

It comes down to perspective, to take a separate topic to prove my point - You may think their limitation to only own bolt actions and shotguns makes them less free. I may think they are more free, since they live without the fear of death in a mass shooting.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by WalterBright on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:00PM (#28373598)
> they live without the fear of death in a mass shooting

I live in the US without the fear of death in a mass shooting because I understand statistics.

There was a school shooting in my area a while back. There was a huge hue and cry to put uniformed police in all the schools. I (annoying person that I am) pointed out that statistically the children were much more likely to die in a traffic accident on the way to school. This did not go over well.

People regularly drown in Lake Washington, too. It doesn't even make the news. Nobody cares.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:34PM (#28373987)
> I (annoying person that I am) pointed out that statistically the children were much more likely to die in a traffic accident on the way to school. This did not go over well.

Wait until you try to bring up stats on legal vs illegal firearm crimes...

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by aplummer on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:26PM (#28373911)
> I live in the US without the fear of death in a mass shooting because I understand statistics.

Obviously you are making the assumption I do not understand statistics, which I do. There are multiple preventable causes of death that can simultaneously be tragedies, and whataboutism does not negate from the extremely high death toll and comparative probability from gun violence in the United States.

The comparison to cars is facetious because cars have the necessary utility of moving people about around the world and are highly regulated, whereas assault rifles have by comparison miniscule utility and regulation.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by WalterBright on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:49PM (#28374126)
I fear the sweeping new police and surveillance powers handed to the government to protect us from a statistically nonexistent threat.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by aplummer on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @06:25PM (#28374422)
The nearly 40 thousand victims (4 per 100k) of gun violence and suicide-by-firearm each year in the USA may be meaningless to you, but they are not statistically non-existent any more than their lives were statistically non-existent.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by WalterBright on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @07:12PM (#28374750)
1. these are not mass shootings. You've shifted your stance from mass shootings to all gun deaths.

2. half are suicides by gun. You do not need to fear them.

3. most of the rest are concentrated in a handful of areas, like some neighborhoods in Chicago. It is indeed prudent to avoid them

4. again, you started out talking about fear of mass shootings. This is what I was addressing. Nowhere have I claimed that gun deaths are not tragedies.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by eplanit on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:49PM (#28374128)
I'm glad you're opposed to the bill, but what you describe sounds to me like a mindset of "I'm free because the government (via restrictions on people) helps me feel safe". To me, that's not freedom, but dependency.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:35PM (#28373998)
> I may think they are more free, since they live without the fear of death in a mass shooting.

Ironically, the surveillance laws were passed right after laws to disarm citizens.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by xxpor on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:28PM (#28373176)
> Keep in mind it’s different to America, you get paid decent money from the state to stay at home.

I wish this meme would die. People in the US got paid decent money too.

The federal gov spent $3 trillion more on transfer payments in Q1 2021 than it did in Q4 2019. This is more than a doubling. That's nearly $17,000 for every human in the US.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/B087RC1Q027SBEA

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by SamoyedFurFluff on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:32PM (#28373231)
How can that be possible when we only had like a few hundred in checks, or some few hundred in additional unemployment for people who were unemployed?
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by abeyer on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:26PM (#28373905)
Not sure if you're being intentionally hyperbolic...

But stimulus checks alone (ie free money for everyone under the income threshold of $75k) were over $3000 per person.

Additional unemployment was hundreds of dollars _per week_, on top of the standing unemployment benefits.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by mlavin on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:40PM (#28373341)
There are far more government social programs than unenployment benefits and stimulus checks.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by pfarrell on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:27PM (#28373170)
Pre-covid, there was almost nowhere to go to the bathroom in downtown SF either.
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by systemvoltage on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @04:31PM (#28373210)
Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by 908B64B197 on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:19PM (#28373809)
> I was fine with Gov-mandated measures last year when we didn't have vaccines. But, I am turning against my own self from last year.

Several zip codes in the Bay are at what... 98% vaccination rate? I still don't get how the "much better" governments of Australia and New Zealands, held as examples through the pandemic, couldn't match the vaccine rollout of... the Trump Administration.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by zizee on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @05:47PM (#28374114)
It's pretty simple. There have been far fewer cases and deaths than in the US. As for the vaccine rollout, it is largely a function of the early success in controlling infections.

The initial vaccine doses destined for Australia were diverted to more urgent areas (which was the right thing to do). Then as domestic product of AZ ramped up, a scare campaign ramped up (media love to make people worried) and the body for recommending vaccines gave advice for under 50s to not take AZ (whilst there was no actual alternative). Because covid lockdowns were effective, and Australians were seeing such low rates, there was complacency amongst the population and they were willing to wait for their vaccine of choice. Now delta is looking like it is making lockdowns less effective, and there is ample supply of Pfizer, people are scrambling to get vaccinated.

Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by hanoob on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @06:17PM (#28374358)
Maybe because US and Europe hoarded the vaccines? https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/what-we-do/news-storie...

I wouldn't give all the credit to the government for the low infection rate last year. I think it was mostly fear and reaction of people. e.g. by the time government started ordering restrictions, most companies had already switched to fully remote. Toilet papers were already gone from the supermarket shelves. People were already bunkering down. Then in a few weeks the infection peaked, and 2 months later students were back in school.

Since that initial success, the state governments improved their contact tracing process, which was successful to eliminate outbreaks every now and then, while things were mainly normal for most the year (except overseas travel).

Unfortunately, in late June this year, the Delta variant arrived to Sydney, and it proved impossible to control. The world-class contact-tracing process failed to stop the infection rate. So we are still in lock-down, with cases still increasing over a 1000 per day in the state (NSW).

However, other states in Australia are still enjoying full freedom. Probably, because they do snap lock-downs (3 to 7 days) whenever a case appears in the community.

Vaccination, the federal government put most of their eggs in one basket. It planned to produce and use the AZ vaccine, but the AZ blood clot issues, derailed their plans. So they stopped or limited AZ, and went begging for Pfizer doses. They are struggling to get enough of this, so they can acchieve 80% rate, to start re-openning the states currently in lock-down.

There might be plenty of vaccines in US and Europe, but unfortunately the rest of world can't get enough of it.

I can understand the initial delay in vaccination in AU & NZ, because given the scarcity of vaccines, and the high death rates in other countries, it would preferable the vaccines were given to those countries first.

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Re:Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in ... by dang on Tuesday August 31, 2021 @08:46PM (#28375364)
We've banned this account for using HN for flamewar. Not what this site is for.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.