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Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by ve55 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:36PM (#28350666)
I spent some time looking at Youtube reccommendations in fresh browser session (no cookies or account) yesterday and was contiually amazed by the types of videos that would often have 10M or even 100M views. The clickbait styles used by nearly all large channels have gotten so amazingly efficient that it seems like they near-perfectly pinpoint various biases and draws in our psyche now, and looking at the large categories of different genres of suggestions was an almost surreal experience in how similarly they targeted potential viewers. A lot of the content was obviously fake, and much of what was not obviously fake was significantly exaggerated for obvious reasons, with the method of exaggeration varying according to the genre of content.

I spent a lot of time thinking about the platform as a whole after this, about all of the both wonderful and terrible changes it causes for our world. Some sections of YouTube are not just equivalent to television, but much worse and clearly actively harmful, but other sections are so amazing (educational content being one of the best examples imo) that it would be far too careless to dismiss the platform or its incentives as inherently bad.

I suppose the best we could hope for is that we find some ways to improve the viral algorithms (and incentive structures that produce them) that control our Internet ecosystem over time, because there are better ways to align incentives with the goals of humanity than we are currently doing, even if it is hard to get there. I often find that society actually does really care about and improve on these issues, but the reason why it is often easier to be pessimistic is because the changes that we make in response often occur very slowly, often over the span of decades even.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by brundolf on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:41PM (#28350718)
Not that it would ever make business sense, but ceasing click-based monetization in favor of Patreon-style monetization would do a pretty good job of getting rid of the bad stuff without getting rid of the good stuff. Most of the quality YouTubers I know of use Patreon already.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by rewq4321 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:06PM (#28350921)
Except that this whole "fake animal rescue" industry is deeply tied to the "paid animal torture" industry (which already has patreon-style facebook groups). It's the same people recording the videos - just two different types of content that they make. I provide links and some explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28350858
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by strulovich on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:49PM (#28351185)
I think the idea that subscription based monetization would turn out better is wishful thinking. What will prevent people from making channels of this horrible videos and get paying customers? Or what makes you think people will pay for educational videos more?

People subscribe to reality TV channels and plenty of guilty pleasures. OnlyFans is booming and so forth.

You may be correct, but I would love to see anything besides our wishful thinking that this would necessarily breed better content.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by smoldesu on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:33PM (#28351089)
I wonder what a Twitch-like model would look like if subscriptions were 10-25x lower (~$.40) so that you could support a handful of your favorite creators without breaking the bank. I bet a system like that would scale better globally.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by SavantIdiot on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:57PM (#28350841)
If a YouTuber uses Patreon only, does that mean they don't get checks? Or they just don't apply for the sweet free monies? (Or are their followings so small they don't qualify?)
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by oakesm9 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:03PM (#28350892)
Some channels such as No Clip (games documentaries) run with no adverts and only make money through Patreon. They have almost 650k subscribers and 45.5 million views, so they’re explicitly doing it to be ad-free.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by ratww on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:50PM (#28350787)
Yes, but I'd say that's true for everything on the web. Advertisement is like a reverse Midas touch. Everything relying on it is on a race to the bottom.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by DaiPlusPlus on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:54PM (#28350821)
> Advertisement is like a reverse Midas touch. Everything relying on it is on a race to the bottom.

Not necessarily though - I can think of plenty of partially ad-supported media and publications that have retained their reputation for quality for decades or even centuries, for example, The Economist and the BBC World Service News channel.

...the thing is that the aforementioned don't generally run mass-market ads: the kinds of ads you see in the Economist or in-between World Service news segments is stuff like Rolex watches, Credit Suisse, and Chase Private Client Banking.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by BoiledCabbage on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:27PM (#28351059)
The two examples you chose, demonstrate the opposite of your point.

One is a subscription service, meaning they aren't reliant on their advertising for most of the finances.

The other is a quasi-govt entity, whose funding comes substantially from a tv license fee.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by DaiPlusPlus on Sunday August 29, 2021 @09:41PM (#28352101)
The BBC as a whole, yes - but “BBC Worldwide”: the arm that runs the World Service channel and foreign broadcasting is self-sufficient and does run ads. Though I’m unsure how the accounting works for profits it gets for programs it licenses out when they’re made by the BBC’s domestically funded divisions.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by ratww on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:00PM (#28350872)
Yeah, those are the exceptions, though, and god knows how long they're gonna last. The effect of algorithmic advertisement and pay-per-impression/click is visible even on reputable newspapers: lots of them are resorting to clickbait because that's what generates pageviews.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by mey on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:01PM (#28350880)
Are they the exception to the rule? It's not like The Economist is free.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by overcast on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:16PM (#28350982)
YouTube allowing creators to change Title and Thumbnails as many times as they want after a video has been uploaded, and providing realtime analytics after a change is what is driving this. They basically are constantly optimizing, until they find what sticks. The crap you describe obviously does very well. Veritasium does a great video on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by james-skemp on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:07PM (#28350929)
Veritasium did a video about this recently, actually. I got the picture and didn't finish it, but it helped me realize how YouTube has pushed junk to me, despite trying to subscribe to quality channels.

https://youtu.be/S2xHZPH5Sng

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by asddubs on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:49PM (#28351186)
i wish there was a crowdsourced browser addon like sponsorblock that just blocked any video with a thumbnail with a surprised face
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by loudandskittish on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:37PM (#28351493)
I'm wondering how long this will remain efficient, though. I'm now at the point where I just flat out refuse to click on any video with a clickbait title, or any video that is exactly 10 minutes long (give or take a few seconds). I can't be the only one.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by download13 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:41PM (#28350715)
Removing recommendation systems entirely, for now, would be a massive improvement, but that won't happen because none of us get input into that decision.

The people who make it have only profit to consider, and the recommendation system gets them more profit.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by GuB-42 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:22PM (#28351028)
There is no way YouTube could work without a recommendation system. The volume is so huge you would get lost in the middle of videos of kids posting gameplay sessions for their friends.

You can get good recommendation, but you have to let YouTube track you, if you are the kind with no account and block every tracker, you will get the stuff that is the most generic and gets the most clicks, because that's the default. It is good if you want to do a sociological study, but it is unlikely to match your tastes because the algorithm doesn't know your tastes.

I guess that if you really don't like the YouTube recommendation system, you can add a few rules to your favorite ad blocker, the tag ids are not obfuscated.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by thaumasiotes on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:12PM (#28351355)
> There is no way YouTube could work without a recommendation system.

This doesn't make any sense. The recommendation system that exists right now will only tell you to keep watching more of things you already watch. YouTube already works without a recommendation system. Recommendations by YouTube are the source of... very little that I watch there. You watch things because you already know what you want and search for it, or because you got a recommendation from something other than the YouTube recommendations.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by GuB-42 on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:44PM (#28351530)
Recommendations are recommendations, whether it comes from YouTube of from outside of YouTube. Separating the host and recommendation engine has pros and cons, that are mostly both sides of the same coin.

You are getting more of what you are interested in, but you get even less diversity. You are less likely to binge watch useless stuff, but it makes it harder to get more content about the topic you are interested in. Less platform independence, but worse integration.

Things become even more complex when you consider monetization. Obviously, YouTube does that for money, but more money for YouTube also means more money for creators. And if you begin to take into account alternative revenue streams (Patreon, sponsors, ...), you get even more tradeoffs. In any case, YouTube needs money, and it is not that profitable (I think it started at a loss).

As for searching, search is recommendation, unless you know the exact title of your video. For example, if you are looking for "how to install a graphics card", YouTube (or Google, or Bing) will make a small selection of the thousands of videos on the subject.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by bmitc on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:53PM (#28351593)
It’s been clear for a long time now that the Internet connects not our abstract and reasoning brain but our primal brain. The fact that it was ever considered this utopian grid is laughable because it’s just catalyzing reversion.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by dorkwood on Sunday August 29, 2021 @09:44PM (#28352122)
> A lot of the content was obviously fake, and much of what was not obviously fake was significantly exaggerated for obvious reasons, with the method of exaggeration varying according to the genre of content.

I think when you see one of these obviously-fake video thumbnails and think to yourself "who in their right mind would click on that?" the answer is usually: children. Millions and millions of children.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by bsedlm on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:58PM (#28350846)
> incentive structures

this. I'm pretty sure current incentives from an era of capitalist (based on industrial manufacture) are just not good at software and digital goods in general.

However, the exclusive ownership paradigm is so ingrained in our civilization that it'll take a long time for humanity to even properly consider other possibilities.

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by dv_dt on Sunday August 29, 2021 @05:50PM (#28350790)
Though one might also wonder if there is some source of artificial click views which could be employed by some channels.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by akomtu on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:06PM (#28350917)
It sounds like YouTube has become a petri dish (in a bad sense) for ideas. I wonder if at a high level, the growth and evolution of certain type of videos resembles fungi.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by pkulak on Sunday August 29, 2021 @06:07PM (#28350925)
Pretty good take on all this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xHZPH5Sng

Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by systemvoltage on Sunday August 29, 2021 @07:12PM (#28351360)
People said TV was bad, let's move on YT. It got popular. Now, YT is bad. I am now starting to think People are bad.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by smolder on Sunday August 29, 2021 @09:16PM (#28351996)
People are good and bad at different times and from different perspectives. So in a way, you're right, if badness is what you're focused on.
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by systemvoltage on Sunday August 29, 2021 @10:26PM (#28352296)
Badness is what's on frontpage of YT with millions of views, so, yes, I am focused on badness of humans. Regarding perspectives - that's an interesting point. What if I am the one with poor taste?
Re:Fake animal rescue videos have become a new frontier for ... by smolder on Monday August 30, 2021 @08:39AM (#28355019)
My intended meaning was more that the people who make some annoying YT clickbait may be forces of good from the perspective of their families which they support, businesses they promote, old ladies they help across the street if and when they do so, and so on. If your taste is poor for thinking YT is promoting badness, then mine would be poor, too.