> "There’s no such thing as consensual sex when you are supervising someone, regardless of their age, but the reality of it is that some of the girls in prison are very persuasive and some of the men are very persuasive,"
These boys are being raped. It doesn't matter if they're perceived to be instigators, it is incumbent upon the staff to show them that there are boundaries that should not be crossed.
At the very least, juvenile victims of sexual assault are more likely to become adult perpetrators. Tolerating rapists operating as guards in male prisons will likely result in the creation of future rapists.
A man in my antenatal class informed Police about being sexually abused by his dance teacher as a child, and never mind their backward mindset, it exposed a flaw in our laws where women were not perceived as being capable of being sexual predators.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dance-star-tells-of-sexual-abu...
Do you have a citation for that?
I'm aware of head injuries playing a role in a lot of terrible crimes, but I've not heard this assertion before that victims of sexual assault are at greater than average risk of becoming rapists themselves.
https://www.inspq.qc.ca/en/sexual-assault/fact-sheets/sexual...
But quotes from your own source:
While a history of sexual victimization seems to be one of the risk factors that predispose an individual to commit sexual assault, it does not provide sufficient explanation for most instances of this type of assault. There is relatively little evidence that the victim-to-perpetrator cycle is a major factor in sexual assault.
These boys should be protected from being raped because they shouldn't be raped. Period.
Further on in the document, it states:
> Experts maintain that, in the case of males, being sexually abused in childhood is an important risk factor for committing sexual assault later on in life, but that it is not the only risk factor that plays a role in the perpetration of sexual assault.
Victims of abuse of any kind fairly often get additional baggage heaped on them that they are now damaged goods and monsters who are highly likely to abuse others because of what was done to them.
I used to see the statistic that about 30 percent of children who grow up in abusive families will go on to abuse their own children while only 5 or 6 percent of "normal" people abuse their kids.
I generally like to turn that around and say "So you're telling me that in spite of learning all the wrong lessons, two-thirds of victims will be good parents and with no justification whatsoever, five or six percent of normal people will abuse their own kids for no real reason."
I am also hearing subtext for "We shouldn't let boys get raped because men are inherently bad people inclined to become rapists. Think about da womenz. These boys should be protected to protect women from them in the future."
I don't think it adds anything of real value to this discussion of the very real issue of boys being sexually assaulted while in legal custody. Boys already face more shame and stigmatization than girls without being told "And now we expect you to become a rapist!"
I've seen comments by male victims over the years on HN about how much baggage they deal with. It's generally much worse than what I had to wash off and it was mostly men who helped me wash it off.
So I don't much like seeing this minor factor talked about in this way given all that context.
Sadly, this is an effective means to have positive action for men gain acceptance.
> Boys already face more shame and stigmatization than girls without being told "And now we expect you to become a rapist!"
Well yes, even professionals Struggle to acknowledge that women can be perpetrators.[0]
0: https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/08/20/women_sex_off...
I agree with your theory but I would never blindly convict someone based on it in practice.
I’d also argue that thinking about the morality of rape isn’t "fun".
I assure you, it's not nice.
This video was the trigger for me to start talking about my experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnopu8iwMG0
Watching this adult, who I grew up watching on TV when I lived in the Dallas area, be able to openly talk about his experience and show emotion about it is what finally allowed me to start dealing with what happened to me.
The tendency of some to frame this sort of thing as good for boys (a sign of maturity, manhood, etc) makes it worse, kids of any gender should feel safe and not be pressured by adults into doing something they don't want to do or aren't ready for.
Outright provocation of gender war hell is the last thing we need here.
a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls
This doesn't make any sense. The comment is talking about how society treats women (and implicitly, men), not about some quality inherent to women. The analogous racial statement would be "white people get treated preferentially in a number of ways by society". This statement obviously isn't problematic under the leftist mores of "polite society", and probably isn't even that controversial all the way to the center-right.
The "halo effect" that women enjoy is well-established, in fact much, much more strongly than the racial bias in my analogue statement.
(That isn't to say that there aren't flipsides to gender roles that benefit men, obviously. The best way I've heard it put is that society entitles men to respect and women to compassion.)
I'm not asking this to be difficult, but just want to understand where the bounds here are. I don't have any interest into getting drawn into irrelevant culture-warring, but discussion of society's downplaying of female abusers seems centrally relevant to a thread entitled "Boys in Custody and the Women Who Abuse Them".
I would say what crosses the line into flamewar is when it's combined with denunciatory language. What you posted wasn't nearly as bad as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28350724, but "I'm soundly rejecting this framing; in fact, I find it utterly revolting and dehumanizing" definitely counts, and in any case it takes two to tango.
The proper thing for this entire subthread would have been to flag it at the root (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28350724 - yes I know that was posted by someone else) and move on.
You can also do this with all the negative statements made about men every day. You'll quickly get banned from HN. Women already get special treatment.
And by "ethnicity or race" I assume you mean "ethnicity or race that's not acceptable to make fun of", because people make negative statements about whites or asians/indians all the time.
a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls
The commenter made the statement: "Women get away with too much in our society."
What's "the best possible interpretation" of such a sweeping condemnation of a group of people?
>I didn't see their comment making any "right wing" statement. Maybe it is a viewpoint that correlates with right wing politics
What's the difference between making a right-wing statement and expressing a viewpoint that correlates with right-wing politics?
>We should avoid sinking in to the political tribalism that puts every issue on a left vs. right axis. I don't think it's a very useful statement to say "women get away with too much"
The effect of what you're doing here is playing down this hostile, openly right-wing statement as something benign by declaring that it is simply "not useful" and that it only "correlates with the right-wing" (as if that's somehow different from actually being right-wing). Then, you're suggesting that the one who pushes back on the author of that clear political expression is the one engaging in political tribalism.
The best possible interpretation, to me, would be that they think women get away with too much, for whatever unstated reasons. It doesn't mean interpreting their post as good or true, but it does mean laying aside assumptions about what they mean and haven't said, like that they hate women, or that women shouldn't make as much money or have equal protections under the law, shouldn't be allowed abortions, or something like that.
> What's the difference between making a right-wing statement and expressing a viewpoint that correlates with right-wing politics?
I think too many things are ascribed to a left or right political leaning. Couldn't a Marxist conceivably say and believe the same thing? ...that society is too lenient towards women? I believe it's wrong to make assumptions about every political opinion someone holds based on one stated opinion or even a few of them.
Why? People are constantly trying to bin me as ingroup or outgroup based on their perception of where some specific opinion lies on a single axis, and they get it wrong both ways. I'm not some stereotype of a centrist either. I have a complex model of the world that draws from a lot of places. Real people are defined on very many axis, not one. Even if the majority of people just found their spot on the left-right axis and adopted every belief they thought belonged there, it's wrong and reductive (and harmful) to assume everyone is that way. Political tribalism or hyperpartisanship or whatever you want to label it is a toxic thing, like a societal disease in need of management, and I try frequently to help other apparently intelligent people see my perspective on it.
> The effect of what you're doing here is playing down this hostile, openly right-wing statement as something benign.
Sorry, no. I engaged you on what you said. I didn't engage them on what they said because it didn't seem worthwhile to me at the time.
>it does mean laying aside assumptions about what they mean and haven't said
My point is that the plain interpretation is problematic in its own right. It's overtly and unduly hostile towards women, so there's no need for additional assumptions. It's regrettable to me that you don't see this, but many don't. It's pernicious, which is exactly why I was compelled to comment.
Because, here we have a group of people that have traditionally had to fight for equal rights in our society and are still engaged in the same. Recasting them as the villains in society or otherwise suggesting that they hold some outsized power that they're abusing is absurd and is part of a pattern of demonizing historical out-groups whenever they seek equality.
Once the narrative becomes, "the real problem in our society is that women get away with too much", then what should society's response be? At a minimum, there's no empathy for their struggle or even acknowledgement that they are deprived of any rights. In fact, they are the problem and need to be somehow checked or curbed, which is a framing that can be used to deny their rights and keep sacrificing them to the political machine.
This is how language shifts the narrative. If the OP had left out that sweeping allegation and just stuck to the narrow topic of differences in the treatment of women and men WRT sexual abuse, then that's a very different, on-topic, and valid conversation. So, ask yourself what the point is of instead broadening it to this general statement about women.
>I think too many things are ascribed to a left or right political leaning
That's a laudable sentiment and I agree. Unfortunately, however, there is a pitched battle being waged by very vocal groups that have dominated our politics and culture. In this process, the right has targeted groups that it uses as political fodder to pit against "traditional society". Pretending that's not happening doesn't make it less true.
>Couldn't a Marxist conceivably say and believe the same thing?
It's not about traditional political definitions involving Marxism, etc. To your point, there's nothing that's necessarily inherently left or right about hostility towards women. However, again, the right in this country has chosen hostility towards certain groups (including women) as a political strategy. And, they would suggest that the left has chosen hostility towards white men as a strategy. So, the right has taken up the cause of "under-siege white men who require protection".
Whether you agree with any of these positions or have a judgment about who's to blame is irrelevant. The fact is, that's where we are. So, in a strict sense, you're right: it's not about traditional notions of left and right. But, it is about the causes that those who've defined themselves accordingly have chosen to elevate.
>Sorry, no. I engaged you on what you said.
In fact, this is the first time you've engaged me. My statement was referring to your reply to shephardjhon.
One of the things I noted from your comments is how little room there is for earnest political positions these days (i.e. actual policy-preferences vs identity-based).
I know that's part of the general point you were making, and you're essentially suggesting that folks just not take the bait of splitting themselves along this binary axis.
I completely agree that engaging in that way is part of the problem, but I'm frankly not sure how to manage down the real harm being done by those practicing the "other kind of politics" without addressing the harm they're causing or the pernicious ideas they're spreading. But addressing it runs the risk of promulgating it. Therein lies the trap.
Anyway, thanks again.
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-concrete-leads-inmates-fled...
> “There’s no such thing as consensual sex when you are supervising someone, regardless of their age, but the reality of it is that some of the guys in prison are very persuasive and some of the women are very persuasive,” Wilkinson said."
I guess we are still have a very long way to go on the cultural part of defining victim and perpetrator.