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Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by tZqGafFdSbj5w34 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:53AM (#28223025)
I seem to be getting a lot of heat for this comment - fair enough, but I will expand on that.

Before joining this company, I hired and managed teams across various startups. I don't think I would be speaking out of turn to say in every company we looked for aptitude and intelligence. I don't know what my previous or current colleagues literal IQs are, but you know a highly intelligent person when you meet and work with one.

Through my entire FOUR MONTH interview process, I met a dozen people, all of whom would be considered highly intelligent. Maybe I am naive to assume that's what that interview process was designed for.

And to be clear, those folks I interviewed with and many other people around me are highly intelligent. But the people I work with on daily basis, whom I did not meet in my interview, are categorically less intelligent and honestly at the root of most of the problems I've dealt with since starting.

Sorry if it is rude, but I think it's an honest depiction of the situation.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by chudi on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:01PM (#28223149)
Maybe you are mixing intelligence with jaded people? I mean if you are in a team and nobody wants to do the hard work, they will probably realized something extra that you haven't or you just have more ambition than your peers and actually want to work. In mega corporations there are all kinds of talented and motivated people, some people just want to coast at work and that's probably ok.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by ActorNightly on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:45PM (#28223807)
Having worked for FAANG, I do tend to agree that there are not a lot of exceptionally smart people. However to say that they are below average intelligence is very dismissive. Its not exactly a breeze to get a job at FAANG, and you do have to know a good bit of stuff to get in.

That being said, if you consider yourself intelligent, and wanted to work amongst "smart" people, you would have asked questions about the team and the process, and made your decision on that. And also not equate IQ and intelligence when talking about people.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by yencabulator on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:41PM (#28240270)
> you would have asked questions about the team and the process

The standard recruiting process for FAANGs seems to be that you are just a replaceable "human resource", and your team will be decided later (decidedly after signing an offer) and may change every now and then.

You may get better treatment with seniority, but I see people reporting that as the typical experience.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by nradov on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:58AM (#28223105)
That reminds me of the old joke about hell being just a sales demo.

http://www.jokes.net/heavenandhell.htm

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by ldjkfkdsjnv on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:14PM (#28223357)
You shouldnt have to feel bad for calling people low IQ. I work at FAANG and feel the exact same way. Completely underwhelmed by the talent.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by fsvavsd on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:25PM (#28224443)
How does OP knows that they are low IQ? That seems insulting to me. It is one thing to say they lack right skills or are unmotivated to work hard. But saying someone is low IQ without doing IQ test is same as calling a fat person lacks discipline to eat healthy.

Or reading your or OP's comments and assuming that you have social and possibly serious mental health issues. Not very nice, right?

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by certeoun on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:59AM (#28234677)
Untreated ADHD, depression etc. might also contribute to low performance. Beyond that, it is bold to claim "low IQ" without even demonstrating it. I don't think many people are interested in learning and thinking deeply regardless of intellect.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by rejectedandsad on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:13PM (#28224264)
I work at the FAANG considered the “dumbest” - do you think people like me have any hope for the future?
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by quickthrower2 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:18AM (#28230920)
There is no linear ordering on workers! You might be dumb at algorithms but great at stakeholder management and average at coding. Takes all sorts of strengths to make a good team.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by s-lambert on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:13AM (#28231532)
You should feel hopeless, you're doomed to having a steady career where you are paid well.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by rejectedandsad on Thursday August 19, 2021 @06:43AM (#28232275)
Except I’m not - I make the same as a new grad at other companies.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by liveoneggs on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:40AM (#28233693)
go bus tables or work a cash register and then complain about your paycheck
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by sircastor on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:19AM (#28230602)
I have no idea which FAANG is considered “the dumbest”…
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by TechBro8615 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:10AM (#28234036)
Any thread with FAANG in the title always brings out the weirdest insecurities. Maybe it's because emotionally stable people don't optimize their life and identity around which megacorp buys their time from them.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by WrtCdEvrydy on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:21PM (#28223470)
"If most companies optimize for finding the best talent and the people with the best talent change companies often then logically only the people joining a company have the best talent" - Average people are average and most people are average.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by de_keyboard on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:20PM (#28223449)
You are confusing IQ and intelligence. It would have been better to say "my co-workers do not seem to be highly intelligent".
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by ldjkfkdsjnv on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:27PM (#28223545)
I'm tired of the semantics, my co workers are dumb. They passed these interviews by memorizing the answers to questions, and they cant come up with useful software architecture. Everything they code is a one off solution to a one off problem.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by jasondigitized on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:38PM (#28223691)
Are they better with people than you are? Does that make you dumb as well? If you were “smart” you would have figured out how to work with your leadership team to optimize a solution for all parties. But you don’t know how to, and therefore from my perspective, could also be considered “dumb”.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by askafriend on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:58PM (#28224825)
Honestly some people are dumb and it’s as simple as that. No need to bend backwards to make excuses for them.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by rualca on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:11PM (#28225817)
This debate isn't really about people being dumb inasmuch as it's about someone accusing every single person around him of being dumb.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by proofbygazing on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:16PM (#28224313)
This comment feels like cope.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by raydev on Thursday August 19, 2021 @04:21AM (#28231579)
And this one feels like cope.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by amf12 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:43PM (#28223764)
> Everything they code is a one off solution to a one off problem.

To me, this is more indicative of the company culture than your coworkers' IQ.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by ldjkfkdsjnv on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:29PM (#28224501)
Not at all. They are not capable of building useful abstract components.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by certeoun on Thursday August 19, 2021 @09:06AM (#28233340)
In school, I noticed that many people don't learn deeply. They get good grades even with a shallow understanding of the material.

They learn by heart and are not interested in why something works. (For example, what a Fourier transform essentially does. A Fourier transform is essentially projecting a target function to the sinusoidal bases. That is what the dot product implies.) I don't think this is necessarily related to intellect. I think it is somewhat related to laziness and lack of interest or curiosity.

They use a bunch of formulas and code snippets and glue it together until it somehow works without understanding it.

I am a big believer in learning deeply by focusing on the fundamentals. Here's what I previously wrote about that very topic:

> Instead of APIs, learn the fundamental algorithms that those APIs provide. Instead of OpenGL, learn rendering algorithms (raserization, Bresenham etc.). The same applies for other frameworks such as Vue.js. Learn how to write a virtual DOM yourself. Learn how JS operates under the hood. Learn how to implement a hash table (std::unordered_map) and a dynamic array (std::vector); understand why you cannot simply delete a bucket when using the open addressing scheme. Learn C and memory management, since many other programming languages are influenced by C. Implement the algorithms in C if you are proficient enough in it (gives you a better understanding).

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by rejectedandsad on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:43PM (#28224647)
What should I do, if I have a low IQ?
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by smsm42 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @02:56AM (#28231134)
Find work that speaks to your strengths, whatever they are. Some people aren't very smart but good at communications, or nice, or creative, or attentive, or can do boring tasks over and over without getting bored, or could sell snow to Norwegians in winter - there is a myriad of qualities beyond intellect, and one has to be truly exceptionally unlucky to not be good at even one (usually there are a few). The trick is finding what you're good at, and what you like to do, and if you're lucky there's intersection between the two, and if you're lucky, there's somebody somewhere willing to pay for it.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by xeromal on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:02PM (#28223168)
IQ is kind of a weird metric to measure people by. Do they get their shit done?
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by dcolkitt on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @04:33PM (#28226730)
IQ is literally the strongest predictor of job performance across every category. Even stronger than years of experience in the job. This result has been replicated by industrial psychology resource again and again over decades.

I get that it’s kinda rude to bluntly talk about IQ, but without a doubt intelligent colleagues make for a more effective work environment.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by alecbz on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:14PM (#28228860)
You can just directly observe how productive your teammates are, why bother using IQ as a proxy.

And it's not like OP gave his co-workers IQ tests.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by 7331 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @01:10AM (#28230561)
I think there's three different potential points/statements:

* a) The main overall productivity issue * b) Making a more general point that they don't seem very bright, at least compared to former colleagues * c) Specifically mentioning IQ score

Yes even though the main topic is (a)... b/c is just extra context.

I think OP's goal was to make point b/c to give some further context on their perception of the situation (whether it's true or not doesn't matter, the point is explaining what they think).

Sure both (b) + (c) especially can make you look like a dick, but I don't think making the (b) point is totally irrelevant to the overall post. It at least gives us more insight into what OP thinks, even if they're wrong.

So perhaps going the (c) route (rather than b) was just an attempt at trying to be slightly more objective (even though there's obviously no evidence at all). (b) is vaguer than (c), so I don't see that (c) was completely irrelevant, even though it comes across arrogant.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by throwaway4220 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @07:01PM (#28228224)
IQ and intelligence are related but not equal. If work performance ~ intelligence ~ IQ, I don’t think it’s fair to say literally
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by yesenadam on Friday August 20, 2021 @09:46PM (#28253319)
> IQ is literally the strongest predictor of job performance across every category. ...This result has been replicated by industrial psychology resource again and again over decades.

Do you have source(s) for that?

edit: The top google scholar result for "IQ predict job performance" is Does IQ really predict job performance? (2015), a fascinating paper which discusses a lot of the relevant issues and their history.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10888691.2014.98...

"To supporters of IQ testing...the picture seems crystal clear. Job performance must be a good test of individual differences in intelligence. IQ test scores (or their surrogates) correlate significantly with ratings of job performance. As a result, IQ tests must be a valid test of intelligence.

What we actually have are scores from a predictor of nebulous identity correlated with ratings for a seemingly discrete construct that is turning out to be equally slippery. In other words, very strong conclusions are seemingly being drawn from correlations between two under-specified constructs. This makes interpretation of the (modest) correlations extremely difficult. In primary studies such correlations have generally left over 95% of the variance unexplained. Even the typical meta-analytic correlation of 0.5 still leaves 75% of the variance unexplained. This does not seem to us to constitute grounds for asserting test validation so strongly."

Their "summary of the main points":

"1. Much in developmental theory, and psychology in general, depends upon the validity of IQ tests. 2. In the absence of agreed construct validity this has weighed heavily on indirect validity using correlations with criterion outcomes among which job performance has a special status. 3. Hundreds of studies prior to the 1970s reported low and/or inconsistent correlations between IQ and job performance. 4. These correlations have been approximately doubled using corrections for supposed errors in primary results and combining them in meta-analyses. Such corrections have many strengths, theoretically, but are compromised in these cases by the often uncertain quality of the primary studies. 5. The corrections to sampling errors, measurement errors, and to range restriction have required making a number of assumptions that may not be valid and have created a number of persistently contentious issues. 6. The claim that the IQ-job performance correlation increases with job complexity is not born out in more recent studies. 7. A range of other—including noncognitive—factors could explain a correlation between IQ and job performance, and even constitute part or all of the enigmatic "general factor." 8. There remains great uncertainty about the interpretation of IQ-job performance correlations and great caution needs to be exercised in using them as a basis for the validity of IQ tests and associated concepts."

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by dehrmann on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:15PM (#28223378)
I read it as a proxy for "am I going to learn from them."
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by teakettle42 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:18PM (#28223425)
Why is it a weird metric?
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by ssully on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:26PM (#28223531)
Because it's not something OP or anyone can actually measure their coworkers for, so it isn't actually a metric, just a way of degrading their coworkers. To me, it says more (negatively) about OP, than it does about their coworkers.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by jasondigitized on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:35PM (#28223644)
Because there are many forms of intelligence. He may be over indexing on mathematical intelligence and under indexing on the intelligence required to work within constraints, ambiguity, difficult people, adversity, and unreasonable leadership direction and expectations.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by rualca on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:09PM (#28225786)
> He may be over indexing on mathematical intelligence (...)

It reads as OP didn't indexed anything and just wanted to denigrate people around him to try to portray himself as some kind of ubermensch towering over his peers.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by TechBro8615 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:06AM (#28233992)
You're looking for independent thinkers. You won't find them at a megacorp because the hiring funnel actively selects against such a personality. Good employees are good followers.

Perhaps you should reconsider selling out to the megacorp, and sell out to VC instead. Now that you're a Xoogler (or FANG-er, whatever), raising money will be easy.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by certeoun on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:17AM (#28234121)
That was my hunch as well. People who don't care about learning topics deeply. Understanding why something works etc.

I noticed that a lot in school/work. People can get good grades even without understanding the topic at hand. Many learn mechanistically and succeed with good grades.

I do the opposite, but it takes time and effort to learn a topic deeply using the Feynman method. Many are not interested in this. Many just apply formulas and code snippets, and they succeed nevertheless. Good for them!

I actually don't care about success or grades or whatever. I care about the topic, because I want to understand why it works. This is just me though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by TechBro8615 on Thursday August 19, 2021 @10:38AM (#28234368)
I’m with you. It’s really an annoyance that we need money to survive.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by nostrademons on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:16PM (#28223393)
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by shostack on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:33PM (#28227464)
What about EQ aka emotional intelligence? Your comment betrays a very biased view. Is it at all possible these people are very good at areas you yourself may be considered "low IQ?"

And how are they to work with otherwise? I've worked with many "high IQ" people who were awful colleagues because they had superiority complexes, had no concept of collaboration, were crap communicators, especially for audiences not familiar with their domains, etc.

Meanwhile I've worked with others who may not be traditionally smart, be deeply technical, etc. But they got people. And people liked talking and working with them. And that led to progress, alignment, and less stress.

I know who I'd prefer to work with any day of the week.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by xiphias2 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:02PM (#28223180)
Speak with your manager or manager's manager that your current team is not the best match for you (if you don't trust your manager). Your manager's manager is incentivized to keep you inside hes team even if you switch managers.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by danaris on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @02:29PM (#28225276)
I notice that while you talk a lot about why you believe you should be able to tell what "high IQ" people are like, you don't say anything about what it is about these people that tells you they're not.

In other words, all you've done is attempt to establish that we should just trust you when you say they're "low IQ", rather than give us any actual evidence that they are, or even any elaboration of what you mean when you say that.

Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by rejectedandsad on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:14PM (#28224276)
Four months? Sounds like Google. I highly doubt there are low IQ people at Google. Your interpretation seems off.
Re:Ask HN: I joined a FAANG and it is awful by awsthro00945 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:43PM (#28223771)
I'm sorry that your thread is getting completely derailed because everyone here seems to offended by your IQ comment.

FWIW, I agree with you and am in the same boat. I joined a FAANG so that I could work alongside and learn from truly impressive people. So far, after a few years of working at my FAANG, I have not worked alongside one single person who I would consider impressive. I won't go so far as to say they're "low IQ" or dumb or anything like that. I enjoy them as people and I like working with them, but they certainly don't inspire me and I do not feel like I am learning things from them that further my career. All of them, even the ones at higher levels than me, seem just as clueless and lost as I am. And that's an awful environment to be in.

It's frustrating, disappointing, feels like you were lied to, etc. My only advice to you is to just quit. Don't stick around searching for something that you already know isn't here. It's very unlikely to get better.