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Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by mebassett on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @08:50AM (#28220351)
Getting this to "hit the court" is a non-trivial problem for someone without access to the legal system. So in order to help the OP should we suggest she contact...whom? the EFF? The ACLU? Who can help with these sorts of legal issues?
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:55AM (#28220960)
the pastor who did not write the book has access to the courts, it's obviously a tort case and probably has affected her ability to work as well so I suppose that means Google should end up paying a lot.

The next person Google does that too gets even more money!

Obviously this thread is evidence in the pastor's favor.

on edit: obviously the OP has been harmed by Google's actions, but I think the pastor can show they have been harmed more. Also being a pastor and stuff, it's a good thing Google is made of money.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by AndreaVass on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:15AM (#28222269)
According to a lawyer, I could sue for “false light invasion of privacy.” Unfortunately, the pastor doesn’t live in a state where that tort is recognized. In any case, Google just fixed the knowledge panel-so thank you guys so very much for commenting and discussing my post! I exchanged dozens of emails with Google in April, then they just started ignoring me after that, all the while rotating images in the knowledge panel. A few days ago they had the audacity to send me a survey about my experience with the knowledge panel support team.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by mebassett on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:39AM (#28222786)
one good thing about doing an "Ask HN" is that it can get so much attention that someone high up at google sees it and fixes it. I'm glad to hear that Google fixed it. Nevertheless, I still wish for legal action just to get a court precedent saying that these things aren't OK. I can dream, I guess.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by AndreaVass on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:09PM (#28223279)
I would love to take legal action if I could find a brave attorney. During my consultations with attorneys, they began speaking in half-words and unfinished sentences as soon as I said my dispute was with Google. I was willing to file the suit without a lawyer to at least force them to fix it. At the very least, I will be reaching out to law professors who are interested in this topic in hopes that they will start a conversation. Although I’m glad it’s fixed, I’m still really ticked off they took me and others through this for months. We all felt very powerless.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by scrps on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:38PM (#28223698)
I would try contacting the EFF, they might be interested in taking up the case or might be able to find you a lawyer who is willing to.

This is the second time in a few months that I have seen this issue crop up:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27622100

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by mebassett on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:35PM (#28223650)
Yes, by "Access to the legal system" I really meant "money and introductions to a law firm that could credibly and argue a complaint against google". I've asked the lawyers I know on twitter if they know anyone (https://twitter.com/mebassett/status/1428032516292759560) but I don't know what else one can do.https://twitter.com/mebassett/status/1428032516292759560

it's easy to say "you should sue" but that's a lot more difficult in practice.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by klyrs on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:19PM (#28224356)
> In any case, Google just fixed the knowledge panel-so thank you guys so very much for commenting and discussing my post!

I fear that this situation will not last. I just googled the name, and curiously, the knowledge panel has a little link that says "claim this knowledge panel." Do you see that option; have you tried exercising it?

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:42PM (#28223746)
>I could sue for “false light invasion of privacy.

Yes you could sue for that but I doubt that is what the pastor should sue for, as you said she was threatened after being mis-identfied as you, they were told of their error, they recognized it and removed her picture, then they put another one in of her again.

I think the pastor should talk to a lawyer from her state as to what she can sue for.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by rolandog on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:56AM (#28221894)
I'm thinking it could be almost anyone, at this point.

In my case, I'm sure I've been rejected from job applications because anyone inexpertly Googling will find there are many people that have the same name as I do, but have been arrested for misdemeanors or even a murder.

Just last week, a guy from a BnB told me he was nervous because he thought I was a dangerous man because of the Google results he got.

So, it would seem that you are involuntarily being dragged to try to compete on Google's search results, even if you're a privacy-minded person.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by ghaff on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:22AM (#28222411)
Knowledge panels arguably add a layer of authoritativeness. But your beef is really with individual names being used as a web search key generally (whether on Google or something else). And the reality is if you have a less common but not unique name, you may end up confused with other people in situations where the searcher isn't really interested in putting in much effort to disambiguate the results.

The only real (imperfect) thing you can if it becomes a problem is to adopt some working name variant that is unique. But that only really helps if you do it up-front.

ADDED: You're probably reasonably safe with a common name. No one expects Joe Smith to be unique. The real problem is when you share a name with only one or two people and they have a big and negative Internet presence.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by TomSwirly on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:18AM (#28222331)
Ever tried to sue a large company? Know anyone who was successful?

"Having access to the courts" is in practice _just not a remedy_ for an individual fighting a $100 billion company.

> it's obviously a tort case

Yes.

> and probably has affected her ability to work as well

That is NOT how the law works, or every writer who got a bad review would sue the reviewer saying it "affected their ability to work".

> so I suppose that means Google should end up paying a lot.

Unless the woman was already making good money as a writer before the picture, and suddenly wasn't, Google will pay _nothing_.

My guess would be that Google would stall the lawsuit for a year or two, then turn off that picture and pay the woman a few grand, but not legal fees.

Then in the next software rev, some picture returns, and she's back where she started.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by toast0 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:25PM (#28224429)
> Unless the woman was already making good money as a writer before the picture, and suddenly wasn't, Google will pay _nothing_.

The suggested plantiff is the misassociated pastor. Google is effectively saying that the pastor wrote the book, which is untrue and Google was notified of this and acknowledged it, and then they started claiming the association again.

This claim is damaging to the pastor in a clear way, and could probably get damages.

I would agree that the author would seem to have a harder case though as damages would be harder to show.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by bryanrasmussen on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @02:05PM (#28224916)
>> and probably has affected her ability to work as well

>That is NOT how the law works, or every writer who got a bad review would sue the reviewer saying it "affected their ability to work".

I thought it was quite clear that I was suggesting that the pastor should sue, and that it was a tort case for her. I was expecting that being a pastor - which is a semi-public role that it might have affected her work.

At any rate a tort is in no way like a book review and if you have a case where your work has been affected that may very well figure into the damages you will be awarded - if it didn't every medical malpractice suit wouldn't mention how their client was unable to work for months after the surgery.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by robbrown451 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:09PM (#28223282)
In the US bad reviews, unless they are lying, are protected by the First Amendment. (provable lies can be defamation)

This does not seem to fall under First Amendment protection.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by dathinab on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:47AM (#28221708)
The OP might also want to avoid a curt case to protect their privacy.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by auggierose on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:17AM (#28220576)
Doesn't every US citizen of legal age have access to the legal system?
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by labster on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:51AM (#28220916)
"If you're a single-digit millionaire like Hulk Hogan, you have no effective access to our legal system." - Peter Thiel
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by Beaver117 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:10AM (#28221104)
A single digit millionaire can barely afford a home nowadays
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by sgregnt on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:43AM (#28221647)
I disagree, the Median house price is ~350k.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by brewdad on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:13PM (#28223339)
Single digits millionaires tend to concentrate in areas where the median house price is much higher than that.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by paulryanrogers on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:05PM (#28223216)
Home ownership is not necessarily evenly distributed. Houses are becoming a safe investment for plenty of folks and entities that aren't living in (all of) them as a primary residence.

Though I'd agree that millionaires can still afford a house in most of the world.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by zrobotics on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:25AM (#28220645)
Are you offering to pay for OP's lawyer?

Edit: This is Google, so what is actually needed is a legal team, not just one lawyer.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by gpm on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:39AM (#28220779)
Many lawyers are willing to work for something like 30% of whatever payout they manage to get, OP (or rather the pastor) likely doesn't even need to pay for a lawyer, just convince one that they have a good case.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding of the legal standard is "reckless disregard for the truth", which seems like it has been met.

An entire legal team is not needed to litigate a simple case against Google, that's just not how the legal system works...

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by jrockway on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:51AM (#28220914)
> Many lawyers are willing to work for something like 30% of whatever payout they manage to get

The printer screwed up the ad, it was supposed to read "Works on contingency? No, money down!"

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by hpoe on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:49AM (#28220896)
It shouldn't need to be like that but it is the case.

It has nothing to do with the merits of the case itself the tactic a company like Google employs is to just file reams of paperwork, discovery, delays, motion for this and that and each of them have to be considered and discussed and pushes thibgs out at least another day or two. They then use this tactic to extend cases into years.

Although a lawyer will work for a certain cut of the reward they need to eat in the meantime and won't because the case isn't being completed, and isn't going to trial, plus it eats up an enormous amount of time and effort for the lawyer involved cutting into other potential cases.

Eventually you have to call it quits and Google wins because the case never went to trial because Googles legal army was able to delay everything by abusing the legal system.

In short as the PHB from Dilbert once said "we're using the law to keep justice away."

That's what's happening right now.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by gpm on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:04AM (#28221052)
You have an unrealistically negative view of the legal system. Google cannot just file unlimited amounts of paperwork and expect either the judge of the opposing attorneys to review it, if they tried the judge might well sanction them, but also it would just cost Google a lot of money for no benefit.

You can go look at cases involving Last Name v Alphabet on the recap archive, they are typically represented by a single attorney. Below are a few examples, I manually filtered out pro-se actions with no attorneys, and class actions, but other then that just went through the list of cases looking for cases with titles fitting the format:

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/8060229/parties/el-mawa...

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6237000/parties/gottlie...

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/8054663/parties/olson-v...

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/8067002/parties/lee-v-g...

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/8133814/parties/kaufman...

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by TomSwirly on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:34AM (#28222664)
> You have an unrealistically negative view of the legal system.

Your links would be more convincing if some of these were successful, completely cases.

The question is not, can you sue Google/Alphabet without a team of lawyers, but can you _successfully_ sue them.

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by TomSwirly on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:25AM (#28222485)
> Many lawyers are willing to work for something like 30% of whatever payout they manage to get,

30% of nothing is nothing.

Can you explain why the writer would get _any money at all_?

What financial losses have they suffered? Are they being defamed? Has it affected their reputation?

---

Civil courts can't fix things like this! It will never be worth Google's time to correct these mistakes unless they are forced to by the government.

Searching the Internet finds thousands of cases against Google, 95%+ of which are settled in Google's favor. In fact, I only found one successful case like this, in 2012, but it was in Australia which has stronger rules on defamation, and Google had also implied that the plaintiff was a major figure in organized crime, not "simply" got the photo wrong.

https://slate.com/technology/2012/11/milorad-trkulja-austral...

Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by auggierose on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @12:51PM (#28223881)
I am not a US citizen and luckily not subject to its shitty jurisdiction which renders people that are not billionaires without access to the legal system. I mean, just say that out loud, and think about what that means.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by Bjartr on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:46AM (#28221697)
In theory? Yes. In practice against a large company like Google? No, not without several years and tens of thousands of dollars (at minimum) to sink into it.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by michaelgrafl on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:36AM (#28220759)
I don't understand why your comment has been downvoted. I'm European and was wondering the exact same thing.
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by tobltobs on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:41AM (#28220801)
In which way would being a European help in this case?
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by gpm on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:46AM (#28220859)
I believe they were suggesting that they aren't intimately familiar with the US legal system...
Re:Ask HN: Google is confusing me with others in a harmful w... by elliekelly on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:53AM (#28221843)
It's paywalled unless you're charged with a crime and even then there's a soft paywall.