News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by cronix on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:01PM (#28076437)
Don't worry, AI is very good at these things and never makes mistakes. It is so advanced it even understands nuance and complex communication mechanisms like sarcasm in text, even if it's only a single sentence to contrast! It will be able to know exactly the context of each image and it will affect only the sickos. We're also working on watching your face through the camera to see your true expression when viewing them. Oh, but if a few innocent people do happen get caught up in it and lives ruined, it's totally justifiable because this type of activity is the absolute worst. And false positives are exceeeeedingly rare. We'll apologize and adjust our algorithms. Sue us? How dare you? We're really trying to wipe out sickos. Are you a sicko or something? You must be. Only sicko's would disagree with protecting children.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by Retric on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:22PM (#28076745)
There is zero AI classification involved, it’s a lookup vs hashes of known child porn images. You would need a hash collision, misidentified photo in the dataset, or legitimate use case to end up with a false positive.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by sandworm101 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:20PM (#28077519)
Ok. Hashed-based image rec. Where are the hashes? Is the comparison done in my phone against a downloaded database, or is a hash of every image on my phone uploaded for comparison on a server? Could this program then be expanded to other classes of images? Animal abuse imagery? Terrorism? Hashes of known bomb-making instructions? How about people sharing illegal pdfs and text files? Will the MPAA be allowed to submit hashes of their copyrighted material? In short: What other warrantless government inspections of my files will Apple allow?
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by Retric on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:22PM (#28077545)
It’s done on Apple’s servers using your iCloud backups. For good or ill this lets people opt out by disabling iCloud.

I would hope most privacy conscious people disable iCloud, but that’s another story.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by pseudalopex on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:11PM (#28079037)
Most of the process is done on customer's devices.[1]

[1] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by Retric on Thursday August 05, 2021 @07:07PM (#28081240)
I was answering this: “Is the comparison done in my phone against a downloaded database, or is a hash of every image on my phone uploaded for comparison on a server?”

To be clear each image, the image’s NeuralHash, and a visual derivative are uploaded to iPhoto. This allows for the inspection of the NeuralHash algorithm used which I actually prefer.

The phone isn’t downloading the hash database.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by thw0rted on Friday August 06, 2021 @12:10PM (#28089136)
From that same page: "Apple further transforms this database into an unreadable set of hashes that is securely stored on users’ devices". The phone is downloading the hash database.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by sandworm101 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:27PM (#28077605)
If apple really cares about security then those images in iCloud should be stored in an encrypted form that makes hash comparisons impossible. If they are hashing them then they have access to them in plaintext. If I used iCloud I would be more worried about the wider implications that creates.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by Retric on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:34PM (#28077689)
iCloud needs to allow people to restore backups on a new iPhone after losing their old one.

You can setup secure encrypted backups, but the customer losing the key means losing the back so that’s not what consumer focused companies are going to do. In other words any backup service that doesn’t have big warnings that losing your key loses your backup means they can read your data.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by sandworm101 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:57PM (#28077982)
https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/04/05/icloud-w...

"The mud puddle test: You don’t have to dig through Apple’s ToS to determine how they store their encryption keys. There’s a much simpler approach that I call the ‘mud puddle test’"

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by diebeforei485 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:53PM (#28077166)
The article says that Apple calls this system neuralMatch. I'm not sure why that name gives you confidence that there is zero AI involved?
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by CaptainJustin on Thursday August 05, 2021 @03:07PM (#28078107)
Also, we've seen more and more AI hardware being shipped built-in to phones.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by ASalazarMX on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:04PM (#28078919)
I hope it's hash-based and not AI. Training that NN would be one of the worst jobs I could imagine, you're adding commercial value to child porn and all the misery it entailed.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by pseudalopex on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:23PM (#28079206)
They trained a neural net to perturb images. Not classify them.[1]

They did add a classifier to iMessage. But it's designed to prevent children seeing any sexually explicit images.[2] There wouldn't be a reason to train it on images of children specifically.

[1] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

[2] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/apples-plan-think-diff...

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by Retric on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:40PM (#28079444)
They are using AI techniques as part of perceptual hashing. In other words it’s trying to match files with specific images rather than abstract concepts.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by headShrinker on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:24PM (#28080809)
I’m pretty sure you don’t know what you’re talking about. Perceptual matching is not image matching.

Perceptual matching is used to sort categories of images. A quick DuckDuckGo will turn up many results. No stretch of the imagination will turn this into a bit for a bit comparison. This is a machine learning algorithm used to categorize images. https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/10/learning-implicit...

Matthew Green is tweeting about this: https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/14230711866160005... and mentions that it is "preceptial hashing”

9 to 5 Mac article, in which they restate that it is not a classical bit-by-bit hash:

https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/05/scanning-for-child-abuse-imag...

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by Retric on Thursday August 05, 2021 @07:13PM (#28081291)
Perceptual hashing has a very specific meaning. It’s for verifying one file is directly related to a different file not an overall classification.

“Perceptual hashing is the use of an algorithm that produces a snippet or fingerprint of various forms of multimedia.[1][2] A perceptual hash is a type of locality-sensitive hash, which is analogous if features of the multimedia are similar.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_hashing

The goal is to verify a black and white copy of an image is identical to a colored original. Search algorithms want a similar thing so they can validate an image contains a blue car. However, a perceptual hashing algorithm must differentiate between different images containing a blue car while matching a photoshopped copy of the same image.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by heavyset_go on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:56PM (#28077226)
If they're using perceptual hashes, which they almost certainly are at least some of the time, then there's a huge space for false positives for each perceptual hash.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by ASalazarMX on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:09PM (#28078993)
Don't worry, some poor traumatized souls will be tasked with reviewing visually all those positives. I hope they have good mental care.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by runjake on Thursday August 05, 2021 @03:54PM (#28078757)
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by Retric on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:23PM (#28079218)
It’s perceptual hashing not AI classification. “NeuralHash is a perceptual hashing function that maps images to numbers.”

The perceptual hashing is based on AI techniques. “The system computes these hashes by using an embedding network to produce image descriptors and then converting those descriptors to integers using a Hyperplane LSH (Locality Sensitivity Hashing) process.”

The difference is AI classification is based on defining something as say a “Cat” and then the AI spits some association with how cat like the image is. This extracts features from an image then compares lists of features to specific images.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by runjake on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:36PM (#28079380)
It sure sounds a lot like AI to me. Saying its just hashes seems misleading to me.

From the PDF:

"The system generates NeuralHash in two steps. First, an image is passed into a convolutional neural network to generate an N-dimensional, floating-point descriptor. Second, the descriptor is passed through a hashing scheme to convert the N floating-point numbers to M bits. Here, M is much smaller than the number of bits needed to represent the N floating-point numbers. NeuralHash achieves this level of compression and preserves sufficient information about the image so that matches and lookups on image sets are still successful, and the compression meets the storage and transmission requirements.

The neural network that generates the descriptor is trained through a self-supervised training scheme. Images are perturbed with transformations that keep them perceptually identical to the original, creating an original/perturbed pair. The neural network is taught to generate descriptors that are close to one another for the original/perturbed pair. Similarly, the network is also taught to generate descriptors that are farther away from one another for an original/distractor pair. A distractor is any image that is not considered identical to the original. "

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by Retric on Thursday August 05, 2021 @10:03PM (#28082487)
It’s closely related to AI, but it’s not image classification. The important thing is your trying to match specific files to hashes rather than features to an image so the output doesn’t need to be human readable.

Image classification on the other hand cares about if the image contains say a stop sign or a trash can. That’s useful for self driving cars etc.

Aka classification you might want to match two different bands playing the same song as identical. Where perception hashing would want them to be classified differently.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by headShrinker on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:17PM (#28080739)
You are wrong. It is not a numerical Hash of the exact image.

It is a perceptual Hash of the images characteristics and perceived continent by the algorithm, that’s the “neural” in neuralmatch.

Apple, for yours has been building-in machine learning dedicated chips into their builds so this shouldn’t affect battery life.

Matthew Green is tweeting about this: https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/14230711866160005... and mentions that it is "preceptial hasing"

9 to 5 Mac article, in which they restate that it is not a classical bit-by-bit hash:

https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/05/scanning-for-child-abuse-imag...

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by jtbayly on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:50PM (#28077121)
Zero AI involved? Simple hashes? Source needed. From what I read, you are making false claims.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by piyh on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:55PM (#28077195)
The concern is less false positives, and more if the Chinese government tells Apple "find everyone who has this picture on their phone in Hong Kong"
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by cududa on Thursday August 05, 2021 @04:29PM (#28079293)
The PhotoDNA platform doesn’t offer the participating organization raw photos, just hashes. The AI part is stitching photos with matching edges together, incase someone cropped them into different parts.

Again, Apple nor any company, have access to the source data, just hashes.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by jtbayly on Friday August 06, 2021 @06:24PM (#28093468)
My point was that it can’t be “simple” hashes, as that is easy to defeat. I never said anything about Apple having the source images.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by slg on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:45PM (#28077061)
And they aren't going to act on a single hash collision. People who have these images likely aren't going to have one or two.

People can argue against this approach for privacy reasons, but I think the false positive argument is a relatively weak one.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by headShrinker on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:29PM (#28080868)
There won’t be any collisions. It’s not a bit-for-bit Comparison. The algorithm uses machine learning to categorize images using perceptual match.

There will be many false positives, they will be reviewed by people. When there’s more than a few false positives, you will be investigated by the FBI.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by 8458e112e7b2 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:04PM (#28076490)
Yep. And if you dont like it, build your own iPhone.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by ghego1 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:10PM (#28076559)
And be immediately labelled by society as a CP holder
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by sigzero on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:26PM (#28076802)
I think this is sarcasm given the last bit.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by BatFastard on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:59PM (#28077256)
Really?
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by mm983 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:18PM (#28076672)
This is painful to read with the arrogant undertone while you don't actually know how CSAM scanning works.

It's fuzzy hash, not ""AI"", based. Cloudflare uses it too, and last time i checked the web is still functional.

https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/36004610611...

How about we turn the tables and have the complainers suggest a solution. Because every single time an approach to targeted child porn takedowns has been suggested, such as datacenter raids which would not affect as many people, someone is screaming about their privacy.

Child abusers evolve and are very happy if law enforcement doesn't.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by BitwiseFool on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:31PM (#28076880)
>"have the complainers suggest a solution"

Being worried about privacy, establishing a precedent for scanning my data against a government database, and the risk of false positives with such an insanely emotionally charged crime is more than mere complaining.

The onus should not be on me to justify why this shouldn't be done. This is something new and it is perfectly fine to argue against it without needing to provide an alternative.

That being said, my solution is to continue to follow the process that law enforcement is currently using.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by mm983 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:41PM (#28077010)
>That being said, my solution is to continue to follow the process that law enforcement is currently using.

If you knew how they approach this you wouldn't be satisfied either

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by BitwiseFool on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:06PM (#28077326)
This all boils down to the classic "Liberty vs. Security" dilemma. While I obviously want to see more prosecutions for people who commit these crimes, a value judgement must be made about what it takes to achieve that.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by fallingknife on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:33PM (#28076901)
> Child abusers evolve and are very happy if law enforcement doesn't.

Yes. And now they will evolve by developing a simple system to modify pixels in images when they copy and transmit that will easily defeat this hashing system. The only effect this will have is that moral panickers like you will have got everybody's privacy invaded over your moral panic of the day.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by heavyset_go on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:01PM (#28077275)
> And now they will evolve by developing a simple system to modify pixels in images when they copy and transmit that will easily defeat this hashing system

They don't use simple file hashes to match images, but perceptual hashes. That way they can find modified derivatives of a source image. The problem with this approach, though, is that this is ripe for false positives. Two completely unrelated images can have similar hashes.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by sterlind on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:48PM (#28077872)
could you use multiple perceptual hash functions with different salts, so that collisions would be less likely while allowing derivatives to be detected?
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by tatersolid on Monday August 09, 2021 @08:15PM (#28123885)
That reduces to just inventing a “fancier” single hash function. This adds no value or security in cryptography; it just makes things slower. I expect the same is true of perceptual hashes.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by heavyset_go on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:54PM (#28077941)
They aren't just matching exact hash hits, but are using a metric like the hamming distance between hashes to determine if one image is the same as , or a derivative of, another. The data structures that allow for efficient lookups rely on that metric, or another metric, for matching.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by mm983 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:42PM (#28077015)
Again, you don't appear to know how this works. Look up fuzzy hash, i even mentioned it in the comment.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by cronix on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:19PM (#28077492)
I was a kid in the 80s and teenager in the 90s. My favorite thing during that time was pirating video games. A game would come out, and it was cracked, usually within hours and often before the game was even released to be sold. That's when "zero day" had a different meaning. All the "warez" ftp sites had a section for 0 day warez. The cryptologists and math brains would come up with new protection methods to protect their IP from being copied. Spend millions, probably billions for all of these projects. Yet, some kid in their basement with a commodore 64 was always able to crack them. Sometimes it would take longer. There were a few that took years, but once figured out, unlocked hundreds of titles previously secured.

This is, and always is, a game of cat and mouse. Law enforcement is always catching up. They are the cryptologists here. They are never ahead, always behind, because they don't know the new protections peddlers are using until they have been in use and later discovered.

No matter what vector you plug, they will use another, and the game continues (sick game). Maybe divide the image into 32 different quadrants and rearrange them, then put them back in the correct order when viewing through a specific image viewer. I'm sure that would bypass whatever detections they've come up in their fuzzy fingerprinting with as the entire image is now different. By the time they catch someone using this, they'll have already moved on to something different, as they always do.

I will never be ok with warrantless searches of my personal property, no matter the reason or justification or subject, and no matter who it is done by (government or private company). And I say that as a survivor of some pretty horrific shit as a kid to the point I fucking tremble with absolute rage when thinking about it 35+ years later. I would be banned from everything for life if I were to honestly state what I would do with these types of people. The movie "Saw" is tame in comparison. I have no compassion or sympathy for these sickos. But when reading world history, I can absolutely see the importance of "innocent until proven guilty" and Blackstone's Ratio "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." Most of human history was the opposite, and it was brutal and full of literal witch hunts. Are we progressing as a species, or regressing in terms of human rights when it comes to technology?

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by noduerme on Thursday August 05, 2021 @05:44PM (#28080341)
You're spot on about the 0-day comparison. As always, something will arise to let people with the motivation hide illegal images. The problem is how it will be used against everyday citizens, who don't have sophisticated tools and maybe just share images of Hong Kong freedom protests, or books, or anything anti-totalitarian. The emotional appeals about this being about child abuse are absurd on their face because of how easily those people will hide. It's a good thing that some people are able to see through that as a ploy. We shouldn't have to go there and prove our bonafide hatred of abusers every time we justify our right to secure encryption or freedom from surveillance. Doing so almost validates the government's position. Just like in China you would have to say "of COURSE I hate the democracy protesters! I just think..." No, you shouldn't have to take a deep emotional dive into a history of abuse to justify your human right to privacy.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by anthony_d on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:58PM (#28077241)
Just saying "fuzzy hash" doesn't begin to explain how this would work. There are an infinite variety of algorithms along with arbitrary tolerances configurable. "fuzzy hash" just isn't helpful no matter how many times you repeat it.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by fallingknife on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:48PM (#28077099)
I have a hard time believing that this algorithm will be able to resist simple image manipulations while still being sensitive enough to avoid false positives.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by diebeforei485 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:04PM (#28077319)
I have similar qualms with this, because this is increasing the number of photos scanned by 2-3 orders of magnitude, and the number of false positives presumably also increases correspondingly.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by midev on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:55PM (#28077191)
What algorithm are they using?
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by fallingknife on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:57PM (#28077230)
I don't know. If they made that public it would be completely ineffective.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by cronix on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:29PM (#28076843)
Not a single joke was made about child abuse.

The specific subject of child abuse is irrelevant in my commentary. It was a commentary on the general category of AI, used all over, for many things, and more and more every day, but nice try.

Edit: You edited out what I was referring to as I was replying.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by buran77 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:29PM (#28076841)
Microsoft has been using PhotoDNA [0] to scan OneDrive content for quite some time. The news is that a device manufacturer is doing it on your device with local data. There's some MS research to use machine learning on metadata to identify offending material [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhotoDNA

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2010.02387.pdf

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by diebeforei485 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:01PM (#28077283)
It makes sense for website owners to scan what's being uploaded to their servers, but that is totally different from scanning what's stored locally on people's devices.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by heavyset_go on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:59PM (#28077255)
> It's fuzzy hash, not ""AI"", based. Cloudflare uses it too, and last time i checked the web is still functional.

If they're using fuzzy matching with perceptual hashes, then the space that false positives can exist in for each perceptual hash is huge.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by babyshake on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:23PM (#28076751)
So this means it is checking if you are sharing known CP images? That does seem to be much less invasive and problematic as there is likely no good reason to be sharing these images.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by notadev on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:09PM (#28077380)
It’s not just checking files you are sharing, it’s also scanning files that exist on your device. The worry, or slippery slope argument, is that it’s one step away from scanning your device for other types of content, like memes critical of the government or just general wrongthink.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by MikeDelta on Thursday August 05, 2021 @03:48PM (#28078645)
A lot of governments would be very interested in this feature.
Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by native_samples on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:46PM (#28077858)
There actually are some edge cases even for matching against image blacklists. Google has experience with hitting them because it's used this type of image simhash for years (for shared cloud files at least).

The definition of child porn varies around the world. These systems use the US definition. This is not entirely what you might expect. For example, in the USA the courts have decided that cartoons can be child porn even though no actual children are in the picture. Most of the world does not agree with this, meaning an image can be CP in one place but not another. Is Apple going to enforce the US definitions or the ones where the user actually lives?

In the USA, photos an under-age person takes of themselves can also be considered CP.

What counts as a "child" for sexual purposes also varies around the world. Some countries have a lower age of consent than other places. In some parts of the world the age of consent and the age at which a child stops being a child for CP purposes are different, meaning that a teenager can have sex legally but if they take a photo of themselves doing it, they are trafficking in CP.

Finally, what is actually on these image blacklists? Hardly anyone actually knows because of the third rail nature of CP. Tech firms are often delivered image hashes, not even the images themselves, by third party 'charities' of various kinds and tech workers are - for obvious reasons - not normally given access to the actual pixels. Additionally, appeals from users are invariably ignored because people say "legal issues, it's complicated" and so everyone clams up. If FPs occur there is no way to resolve it and the people who see your appeal, if there even is one, won't be willing to actually look at the image to find out what it was.

It should be obvious how much potential for abuse this hands the people who actually manage these CP databases. Literally any image can be made verboten immediately, without any recourse, and basically nobody will ever find out including the people who shut down the affected users.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by mm983 on Thursday August 05, 2021 @01:30PM (#28076860)
Yes, that's exactly it. It uses a database compiled by NGOs and specialized firms comprising of file hashes matching child porn. These lists are handled by humans.

Fuzzy means that it takes compression and the like into account, because even if just one pixel out of 20 thousand is different, the hash is different too. Fuzzy hash still recognizes it as the same image, so using an algorithm to alter the color etc. won't work.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by ggreer on Thursday August 05, 2021 @02:17PM (#28077473)
> These lists are handled by humans.

That's also true for the no-fly list and the Terrorist Screening Database,[1] yet those are full of false positives. And unlike those lists, CSAM databases cannot be independently verified. To do so would require having the original images, which is illegal.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_Screening_Database

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by sterlind on Thursday August 05, 2021 @03:18PM (#28078231)
The no-fly list and the terrorist screening database aren't used in a court of law. The Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment guarantees you access to all the evidence presented against you. You also don't need the original images to defend yourself, though apparently CP can be presented to a (traumatized) jury [0].

So if you're charged on the basis of a fuzzy hash matching, you'd subpoena Apple for the photo in your backup that matched, present it to the court (since it doesn't actually matter if it's CP or not to be admissible), and you win the case.

0. https://www.johntfloyd.com/the-difficulty-with-criminal-evid...

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by headShrinker on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:36PM (#28080954)
> So this means it is checking if you are sharing known CP images?

No. NeuralMatch was “trained” using 200,000 CP images. “Neural“ is likely a reference to the perceptual matching that it uses. It is not a bit for bit match.

Perceptual matching is a technique used for categorizing images based on characteristics and content.

The algorithm will scan your library containing new information and compare it to what it understands as CP.

Re:Apple plans to scan US iPhones for child abuse imagery by headShrinker on Thursday August 05, 2021 @06:39PM (#28080987)
There is no reference to fuzzy anything in any of the write ups. I don’t know how you can proclaim that this is a fuzzy hash. Where is your source?