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Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by xtracto on Monday August 02, 2021 @11:52AM (#28038271)
Great read, thanks. This is a very interesting subject to me. A couple of years ago I read a theory about alien life that was a bit different from this:

Given the age of our universe, sun, earth and humans:

     Universe  14 000 million
          Sun   4 600 million
        Earth   4 550 million
   Earth Life   3 500 million
       Humans      .2 million  (200,000 years)
The probability of some alien life being within say, a range of [-.5 mllion, .5 million] of the life on earth is VERY slim. It is most likely that life out there is either in very early stages (protezoric) or that it is way farther than our current form (how will humanity look like in say, another 500,000 years?, assuming it continues to exist and evolve)
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by jbotz on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:19PM (#28038679)
First, the article wasn't about human-like technological civilization, but just about life in general. And there are species of animals alive today that have hardly changed in 100s of millions of years. So Kershenbaum would be right if we found some life-forms that vaguely resembled for example a Coelacanth on some exoplanet.

Second, you're ignoring the fact that life as we think of it can really only evolve around at least 3rd-generation stars because you need enough heavy elements. That cuts the age of the "life-capable" universe by at least half, so the window of relatively modern life on earth with respect to the age of the life-capable Universe really isn't that small... let's say 350My out of 7Gy, so about 5%.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by TedDoesntTalk on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:37PM (#28038987)
What are 3rd generation stars, and why do we believe that life “as we think of it”can only evolve around them?
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by dogma1138 on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:50PM (#28039170)
Stars that formed in nebulae that had 2 previous cycles of star formation and super novae.

This means that the star’s solar system at that point has sufficient quantities of heavy elements which cannot be produced by stellar fusion, as these elements are produced by super novae and from solar radiation.

Basically all the neutrons that are produced when a star goes boom create the elements that are above iron in the periodic table.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by AnimalMuppet on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:44PM (#28039067)
First generation stars are stars that are formed from big-bang gas - mostly hydrogen, a bit of helium, a trace of lithium, and nothing more. Second generation stars are formed from the gasses blown off by the novas of first generation stars. Third generation stars are from the novas of second generation stars.

I suspect that the claim that life as we know it can only evolve there is because life as we know it needs a wide variety of chemical elements. We need carbon and oxygen, of course, but also iron and calcium and magnesium and potassium and so on. You're not going to get that around a first generation star. You might not get enough of it around a second generation star.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by iamgopal on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:59PM (#28039314)
can by products of first gen / second gen star creates life-form that is alive in whatever sense we think something is alive, but radically different in whatever capability we think a life form must have ? What is alive in the sense for us to search in universe ?
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by dogma1138 on Monday August 02, 2021 @01:34PM (#28039876)
First gen unlikely unless life can form from the elements created during the Big Bang and w/e minute amounts were created due to solar radiation during the life of the star.

And most importantly first gen stars can’t form planets other than gas giants and even gas giants are questionable because our current understanding that other than a few failed stars these also usually require a heavy element core as a seed.

2nd gen stars are a possibility in a region of space that had a lot of 1st gen stars to nova and there might be sufficient amount of heavy elements already there to form a solar system.

So unless life can form from hydrogen, helium, lithium and beryllium then no life in 1st gen stars.

2nd gen is highly dependent on the region of space although I would posture that any region active enough to create sufficient amount of heavy elements would probably remain too active during the 2nd generation for life or at least complex life to form.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by Jerrrry on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:56PM (#28039263)
Familar higher orders of complexity emerge far easier within systems with more states.

Due to our physical laws elements with larger rooms for reaction via chemistry are familar.

The chances of a replicating agent just anthropologically emerging from the surface of a 2nd generation hydrogen dominant star with an accumulation disc composed of little higher orders elements is inconceivably less likely than the relative petri dish organic molecules provide.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by roberttod on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:03PM (#28038441)
Unless we just happen to have evolved very early on compared to what's normal, we should expect a lot of intelligent life with just a little bit of variance on these numbers. And some of that could easily be millions of years old. Interestingly, even if a life form populated new solar systems at a rate of a thousand years per system (where each populated solar system in turn populates more of them), they'd still fill up the Galaxy in only a couple million years.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by dTal on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:12PM (#28040482)
Unless "intelligent" life inevitably renders its local environment uninhabitable and collapses in short order - a proposition looking more likely by the day. It may be that the intelligence required to maximally exploit the local negentropy is strictly less than the intelligence required to not do that, despite being able to. Indeed it's difficult to see how the trait of "behaving responsibly with an entire planet" could evolve - the selection pressure is rather all-or-nothing.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by revscat on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:32PM (#28040757)
This is my belief as well, although slightly different in how I phrase it: humans are incapable of seeing much beyond their own selfish desires, and as a result will wind up causing their own extermination. The denial of death is widespread and understandable: to truly consider existential demise is exhausting, and I suspect has been backgrounded for simple evolutionary reasons.

Regardless, the species is naturally incapable of averting averting crises that are foreseeable but distant.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by fleddr on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:12PM (#28042702)
Why is intelligence seen as some inescapable playbook of evolution?

Evolution has no agenda or goals, other than to select for survival. Most species on this planet have a low intelligence yet are successful, and don't seem to evolve into the direction of intelligence.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by roberttod on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @09:46AM (#28049080)
For every planet with intelligent life, there could be many more without it, no idea what that relationship might look like. I'm not suggesting it's the norm.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by sliken on Monday August 02, 2021 @05:21PM (#28042824)
That makes it sounds like it took 1 billion years for life to form. According to timelines I've read about (based on scientific papers) it took around 800M-900M years for the heavy bombardment to stop, and temperatures reduced similar to those of today. So once an environment friendly to life appeared, life appeared quickly.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by willis936 on Monday August 02, 2021 @11:58AM (#28038365)
This is assuming independent genesis. Panspermia has a lot of merit.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by echelon on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:08PM (#28038505)
Panspermia is fascinating conjecture.

The preferred chirality of organic molecules could absolutely have arisen by chance, but it's an interesting to see this in meteorites.

On the unrelated subject of handedness, I saw an interesting thread on Twitter today [1] speaking about how we're starting to synthesize reverse chirality polymers and enzymes, most notably DNA and replication enzymes.

There are a lot of interesting implications.

You can't get rid of L-DNA without reverse DNase, leading to an accumulation of information and transcription. So they need to remake all the enzyme steroisomers.

That alone is interesting, but you can take it further to the limit and produce reverse biology that synthesizes reverse sugars that can't be metabolized by much of extant life [2]. Suddenly a lab-escaped reverse autotroph can out-compete all of us right-handed lifeforms because nothing can eat them. Bacteria, plankton, the entire food web collapses. When we have nothing left to fish or farm, we die too.

Never thought nanotech's grey goo was plausible. Now I see something that rhymes with it, and I could see it happening within our lifetimes.

It'd make a crazy MAD bioweapon on par with or potentially worse than nukes.

Wild tangent, sorry.

[1] https://twitter.com/eigenrobot/status/1420952351968432130

[2] https://twitter.com/prawncis/status/1420982623048925187

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by bookofsand on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:58PM (#28041138)
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event.

> Such negative values occurring shortly after the GOE require a rapid reduction in primary productivity of >80%, although even larger reductions are plausible. Given that these data imply a collapse in primary productivity rather than export efficiency, the trigger for this shift in the Earth system must reflect a change in the availability of nutrients, such as phosphorus. Cumulatively, these data highlight that Earth’s GOE is a tale of feast and famine: A geologically unprecedented reduction in the size of the biosphere occurred across the end-GOE transition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6717284

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by piyh on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:57PM (#28039275)
A MAD weapon like that just becomes an AD weapon. A nuclear lab leak kills under 1,000 people. A living weapon lab leak would kill (nearly) every other living thing.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by wizzwizz4 on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:14PM (#28038587)
> because nothing can eat them

But I assume they're not immune-invulnerable.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by echelon on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:15PM (#28038609)
Where did the reverse viruses that can bind to their cellular receptors and co-opt their reverse cellular metabolism evolve?

To be clear, evolution of viruses is probably inevitable. But on what time scale does it take for them to arrive ex nihilo? Millennia? Longer?

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by radicaldreamer on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:28PM (#28038799)
I'm getting similar vibes to out of control gene drives created with crispr...
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by nvader on Monday August 02, 2021 @11:31PM (#28045422)
But what do they eat?
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by echelon on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @01:13AM (#28045901)
Varies depending on the organism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbial_metabolism

Water, sunlight, carbon sources, phosphorous sources, nitrogen sources. And any additional think they have enzymes to break down and process. Advanced organisms could feed off complex organic molecules, but this isn't necessary.

The point is that with reverse chiral sugars, polymers, etc., they wouldn't be a meal for anything in the wild. (At least not one with nutritional value.) No predation and no competition leads to massive expansion, and they could exhaust resources that other necessary parts of the food web require.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by nvader on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @02:46AM (#28046326)
Oh, I get it now. And then when they expire they deposit undigestable material in the soil, capturing carbon and eventually turning into coal. The dawn of the dextro-carboniferous period.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by echelon on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @04:46PM (#28053956)
Bingo.

This would make a fantastic "phase one" alien bioweapon to aid in wiping out a planet's existing lifeforms and replace ecosystems with one better matching their own. Assuming post-biology aliens care about biology.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by imglorp on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:25PM (#28040649)
Yes and there are two types of panspermia.

The first type is incidental: we've already encountered meteorites from Mars and the Moon, for example, so it's not hard to imagine life bearing material arriving that way.

The second would be intentional: either ET seeds planets or merely visits them with contaminated boots or probes.

Either way, we would pick up some DNA from offworld.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by machiaweliczny on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:06PM (#28038482)
I think terdigrades might already be alien. How they evolved on earth?
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by superduperycomb on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:08PM (#28038509)
I believe if you look at their genetics they fit snugly within the tree of life
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by rozab on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:50PM (#28039164)
This is one of my favourite websites, and I share it all the time:

https://www.onezoom.org/life.html/@=111445?img=best_any&anim...

(hopefully that links to the right place)

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by bumby on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:33PM (#28038901)
I don’t want to speak for the OP but I read their comment as “why did they evolve certain features that wouldn’t have be reasonable given the evolutionary pressures of earth?” E.g., their ability to survive high levels of radiation or vacuum.

There’s some speculation that a large amount of their genetics were transferred from other animals.[1] I wonder how much this muddles the tracing through the evolutionary tree.

[1] https://www.pnas.org/content/112/52/15976.abstract

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by someguyorother on Monday August 02, 2021 @02:11PM (#28040459)
> E.g., their ability to survive high levels of radiation or vacuum.

If I recall correctly, the tardigrades (and extremophiles like D. radiodurans) have evolved to handle damage brought on by desiccation. As a fortunate side-effect, this general robustness also protects against radiation.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by andruby on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:27PM (#28038787)
What would be the odds that other planets/habitats have a similar "tree of life"? I don't know. Given the huge number of similarities in DNA, I'd say it's extremely small.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by stefs on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:22PM (#28038732)
tardigrades might have some very cool properties, but nothing out of the ordinary.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by TedDoesntTalk on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:39PM (#28039001)
His article completely ignores the possibility of engineered life. Engineered life can bypass evolution and natural selection, even if the species responsible for the engineering was a product of evolution.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by xwolfi on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:44PM (#28039079)
Heh and what if the engineer even introduces evolution and what he truly engineers is code-based chemical cells that can conquer, survive, evolve and expand from anywhere ? :D

I'd do a life myself, I'd make it post-metallic, post-silicon, post static: I'd make it use water and carbon, so that it can exist everywhere. I would make it so that it can become intelligent on a small time scale, say a few billion years, all on its own, from scratch, on any rock :D

Not saying we have an engineer, but you think of engineered life as you are now as a simple software programmer. But an engineer in 500k years trying to expand more, would probably think of chemical automata that can evolve and adapt in harsh conditions. Say for instance if humanity decided it would be enjoyable for life to exist on Jupiter. It'd have to make something that can try a lot of variations with a very simple first formula to consume whatever gas there is there and survive whatever pressure.

Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by piyh on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:46PM (#28039113)
It'd be like explorers dropping goats on islands to come back to harvest them later.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by jacquesm on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:49PM (#28039158)
There are quite a few SF stories around this theme.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by jacquesm on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:49PM (#28039155)
Creationists may be on to something after all ;)
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by Koshkin on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:13PM (#28041997)
But, the usual: Is the creator a lifeform?
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by dogma1138 on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:54PM (#28039240)
Engineered life still follows evolutionary pressure and natural selection it just might not hit the same walls as life that is only driven forth by random mutations and opportunistic gene exchange does.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by piyh on Monday August 02, 2021 @12:44PM (#28039075)
Strong arguments can be made that the ability to become a multi-planetary civilization requires you to master the tech tree that includes engineered life.
Re:Why extraterrestrial life may not seem alien by bmitc on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @09:21AM (#28048810)
> Engineered life can bypass evolution and natural selection

Is there any example that backs this up?