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Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by paulddraper on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:00PM (#27990299)
Hijaking this to say I hate VPC. I hate VPC.

Applying 1990s NATting to next gen cloud service? Gotta give the greybeards something to do.

The purpose of NATting is to deal with limited IP addresses, a problem that has been solved for a long time now.

AWS makes me create a VPC, but I certainly don't set up some central-point-of-failure NAT or pay AWS to do it.

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by rhacker on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:14PM (#27990450)
The fact that we have NATting is why you still have ipv4 addresses at all. Just look at the other thread about ipv6 that's going on in HN right now. Even if a small percent of a population doesn't have an IPv6 address means that no company can use it exclusively yet.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by wmf on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:36PM (#27990639)
IPv6-only VPC with dual-stack load balancers seems like it would be a great architecture if cloud providers would dot all the i's to make it happen.

https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/deploy360/2014/cas...

https://toreanderson.github.io/2016/02/22/ipv6-only-data-cen...

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by mwcampbell on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:45PM (#27990723)
But would such a VPC be able to make outgoing connections to IPv4-only servers?
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by wmf on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:53PM (#27990790)
You could use a NAT64 gateway to do that. At that point you're trading one form of NAT for another so there's less value in going IPv6-only.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by floatboth on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @08:55PM (#27991565)
Well not having to dualstack is still just nice. No more DHCP4, and so on – e.g. you can have SLAAC as the one and only very simple way of auto-assigning addresses (in a client setting, obviously not what you'll use with servers that have their addresses listed in DNS :D)
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by carlhjerpe on Thursday July 29, 2021 @03:54AM (#27993993)
It would be nice if NAT64 was embraced everywhere, I love typing IP addresses because I'm lazy, but we need IPv6 right now.

There are still too many rough edges going V6 only though, like if I set my own DNS servers, will they resolve A records to NAT64 AAAA records? And how will the regular Windows sysadmin deal with registering DNS records?

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by KirillPanov on Thursday July 29, 2021 @05:46AM (#27994603)
We continue to suffer for the boneheaded failure to make NAT64 a mandatory, required element of every IPv6 router.

DJB saw all this with crystal clarity almost twenty years ago:

http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/ipv6mess.html

Note that when he wrote this, NAT64 didn't even exist. NAT64 is basically standardization of "make IPv6 work the way DJB said it should".

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by p1mrx on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:53AM (#28026651)
DJB's (sketch of a) solution seems more like 6to4, where every IPv4 address automatically gets a /48 IPv6 prefix. It was deprecated due to unpredictable reliability.

It doesn't make sense to have NAT64 on every router, because NAT64 is stateful and needs to be properly engineered into a network. There are also alternatives like DS-Lite and MAP, with different design tradeoffs.

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by fulafel on Sunday August 01, 2021 @02:02AM (#28024158)
Everyone who wants to is already doing v4 NAT along with IPv6 in a dual-stack setup. In this NAT64 alternate reality the discussed AWS configuration would be "v6-only vpc with NAT64 disabled".

(And mandating NAT in routers would be a pretty radical departure from the current internet architecture).

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by KirillPanov on Monday August 02, 2021 @04:41AM (#28034289)
Far less radical than having two different versions of IP on the Internet at the same time.

When there was only IPv4 there was no reason for backwards compatibility. Caring about backwards compatability doesn't become radical simply because it becomes necessary.

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by hrez on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @07:12PM (#27990945)
Except you don't need NAT. You don't even have to get external ipv4. Use ipv6 for external ip and internet access. Think of it as classic with customizable internal network. VPC is a superset of classic.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by res0nat0r on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:03PM (#27990334)
Are you talking about instances you want completely isolated with no public IP addresses and only RFC1918 IP's, but can reach out to the internet?

Nat Gateway has been around for ~6 years now and is highly available and a managed service so you just need to click a couple of buttons. https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2015/12/introduci...

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by mwcampbell on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:10PM (#27990413)
At $0.045/hour, NAT gateways are expensive. This sets up perverse incentives, as it's cheaper to keep wasting public IPv4 addresses. If anyone from AWS is watching, I suggest that you make the base fixed price of NAT gateways way cheaper, and maybe add a small extra charge for EC2 instances and Fargate tasks with public IPs.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by orf on Thursday July 29, 2021 @06:42AM (#27994917)
It’s $30 per month, which is not expensive and is gonna be a rounding error to most users.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by terom on Friday July 30, 2021 @03:41AM (#28005453)
You need one of those per AZ, and multiples of that if you split up projects across VPCs or AWS accounts.

AWS accounts and VPCs are free, so NAT gateways can form a significant part of the per-account/VPC base cost, which can be a significant part of your total cost for a small project/environment.

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by paulddraper on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:29AM (#27993094)
Yes, I get to pay AWS $30/month per VPC for immense privileged of accessing the internet from my cloud VPS.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by rswail on Thursday July 29, 2021 @04:52AM (#27994313)
The only problem with NAT gateways is that they are single-AZ. So if you're setting up multi-AZ in a VPC, you need one per AZ and you need the routing to be AZ specific.

If the NAT gateway was a service, then it could be multi-AZ transparent to the VPC.

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by wyldfire on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:05PM (#27990364)
This is probably dismissed by the "or pay AWS to do it" clause.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by 1123581321 on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:11PM (#27990422)
If VPC isn’t important to you, haven’t you made one catch-all VPC for your account a long time ago with good-enough general settings? It shouldn’t come up that often unless you are in a position to benefit from the feature.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by paulddraper on Thursday July 29, 2021 @01:30AM (#27993098)
Yes I have.

But I also work with a lot of people that don't.

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by rswail on Thursday July 29, 2021 @04:53AM (#27994318)
AWS does that for you by auto setting up a default VPC in each region.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by lowbloodsugar on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:19PM (#27990505)
Why would you think its 1990s NAT? Launch an instance with a public IP and there's no central-point-of-failure. The "Internet Gateway" isn't an actual physical device.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by rswail on Thursday July 29, 2021 @04:54AM (#27994324)
The IGW is not the NAT gw. You need both for private networks outgoing public connections.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by lowbloodsugar on Thursday July 29, 2021 @02:08PM (#27999537)
Sure. It's not the NAT gw. But it is NAT. Op was complaining about having to use 1990s NAT, and I was responding to that. NAT gw isn't really 1990s NAT either, since it autoscales. I assume the sentiment was the complaint about having a "public" subnet and a "private" subnet, and using a NAT to route traffic for the "private" subnet. Its been a while since I used AWS, but I was at a large company and that's simply how IT Security demanded it. So, of course, AWS offers a solution for that market.

But if you use IGW, then your "public" subnet is still actually a private subnet: all networking to hosts inside the VPC occurs with private IPs. The public IPs are 1:1 NATed by the IGW. Your instances never see packets with their public IP. And you can launch instances in the "public" subnet without a NAT mapping if you want. For IPv6, you can have an egress only IGW.

So you can do "traditional" NAT if you want, or you can do "modern cloud" NAT using IGW. It is really your choice. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just letting OP know that there is a non-1990s option. =)

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by jlawer on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @06:04PM (#27990351)
Except with IPv4... it hasn't been solved because there just isn't enough addresses. And most organisations I have worked with on AWS is still predominately IPv4.
Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by wmf on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @09:13PM (#27991690)
most organisations I have worked with on AWS is still predominately IPv4.

Because AWS initially had poor IPv6 support and they didn't include it as "cloud native". Customers build things the way AWS encourages them to.

Re:Amazon EC2-Classic Is Retiring by staticassertion on Wednesday July 28, 2021 @07:27PM (#27991044)
> The purpose of NATting is to deal with limited IP addresses, a problem that has been solved for a long time now.

You mean by nat'ing?