News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by chucksta on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:19AM (#27960497)
The major US company I worked for 6-7 years ago had a global presence, but were all sort of independent. We started to merge into 1 formal company, and started reviewing IT processes.

The Japan location still had people walking through the data center with a sheet of paper and a pen, going through and manually checking servers off a list in the data center. It blew everyone's mind

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by sandworm101 on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:57PM (#27962732)
>> with a sheet of paper and a pen, going through and manually checking servers off a list

Military here. We still do that. Classified systems have to be mustered (counted) regularly. Electronic records can be hacked/altered/spoofed remotely. In many situations that clipboard on a hook remains a perfectly valid security device, especially for systems/weapons/things that are not powered up 24/7.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by arp242 on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:10PM (#27962938)
In a similar vein, in some countries they just went back to paper voting after trying electronic machines (e.g. Netherlands). It's not perfect, but it electronic solution also doesn't seem to be, and overall it seems to work well enough.

There's this perception that "digital = better", but that's not always how it works. Actually, in quite a few cases the analogue solution was quite a bit better (analogue buttons, for example, but also just having some things on paper was a lot easier IMHO, like bus tickets and whatnot).

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by chucksta on Monday July 26, 2021 @03:19PM (#27964035)
Completely understand where you are both coming from with ideas about security and "good enough" technique. But these were incredibly simple tasks which any simple automated system would suffice. Things that could be analyzed with a graph and 5 minutes of time to review it were taking days.

I also should have specified this was in an e-commerce company, so no state secrets or anything like that.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by sandworm101 on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:41PM (#27966374)
>> simple tasks which any simple automated system would suffice.

Show me a machine that can go from room to room, from vehicle to vehicle, counting rifles without error. In the dark. In the mud. When all the vehicles are parked in different places every day. Or another regular task at my unit: itemizing first aid kits. Good luck telling a robot to count the number of tourniquets in a locker without making a mess of things.

>>and "good enough" technique.

These aren't good enough things. The human being counting things and signing a piece of paper is better than the automated/online system. A human's positive control cannot be hacked remotely. Go to a hospital and see if the surgeons are ok with their tools being cleaned and counted by machines, without human backup. Will never happen.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by 0xFF0123 on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @07:04AM (#27971001)
Presumably Chuksta is referring to their original comments about the Japanese data center, not your experience in the military.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by chucksta on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:08AM (#27971957)
Other response to this was correct in their assumption. Those comments were additional to my initial. I was agreeing with you there is still a perfectly good time and place for this to occur, this was not one of those. Nice, safe, clean DC, with plenty of light, we're talking "how much space is left on the system drive?"
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @09:27AM (#27972123)
But humans can be bribed or blackmailed.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by oyashirochama on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @02:59AM (#27969436)
To be fair, Classified systems are an odd man out and all our other systems have been transitioning to electronic tracking, even most of our high side stuff have digital tracking inside of high side or without Classified information.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by closeparen on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:02PM (#27964635)
So can we defund the NSA then? If their conclusion is “lol just don’t use computers for anything important” why pay them hundreds of billions of dollars to “secure” them?
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by sandworm101 on Monday July 26, 2021 @06:45PM (#27966411)
NSA's encryption trickery means little when the "secured" system isn't actually turned on. You still need to count things even when they are not in use, especially when they are in long term storage.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by spamizbad on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:23AM (#27960545)
I sometimes wonder if Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers disincentivizes time-saving "automation": In the US, where the expectation is closer to 40 hours, you don't have the luxury of always assuming employees will be cool putting in 10-12 hour days.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by toyg on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:56AM (#27961013)
> Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers disincentivizes time-saving "automation"

I reckon it's more that initiative is not expected, or even discouraged. You will work on what the direct superior tells you, end of story. And the more people the boss can lord on, the bigger his empire looks like; so there is little incentive for middle-managers to pursue efficiency.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by anonAndOn on Monday July 26, 2021 @12:23PM (#27961392)
The long hours are largely for saving face in front of the team. Nobody leaves before the boss leaves, with full trickle down effect. So if the director is working until 9pm that means his managers are there until 9pm and then the staff is sitting at their desks looking busy-ish until 9pm, regardless of utility. Anybody who leaves early is not "giving their best" to the success of the team.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by sharken on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:42PM (#27965188)
Hmm, my goal is to do something memorable during a workday and not just showing up.

Let alone the fact that in IT, you can rarely produce something worthwhile after 4-6 hours.

It would also be hard to respect arbitrarily chosen rules, that have no proven effect on productivity.

It's hard to see Japan being competitive with archaic rules like the above.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @08:33AM (#27971638)
It's interesting that these things don't seem to matter that much. Japan isn't some basket case, it is a developed and wealthy country. This is all the more remarkable when you consider the demographic circumstances it faces.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by dayvid on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:32PM (#27962356)
I was an english teacher in Japan for 2 years at a junior high school.

The rep from a textbook company would go to the teacher's lounge every semester, bow to each of the teacher's one at a time in front of their desks, and ask them what they wanted to order from the catalog. The teacher's could've easily put in an order online or over the phone and I imagine the salesman had to go to each school in person.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by indigo945 on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:08PM (#27962005)
The average Japanese employee works less hours per year than the average American, on what comes down to having an additional two weeks off per year (1713 vs 1783 hours worked annually [1]).

Of course, with statistics like these one has to consider the fact that second-income earners working part-time jobs make the statistic skew low, which means that in countries where wages are high enough to feed a family with only one parent working, the numbers will skew higher despite less actual hours worked. I am note sure to what degree the statistics address this issue.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by harpersealtako on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:32PM (#27962349)
This uses the official numbers for average hours worked in Japan, which are definitely not accurate as a lot of overtime is unreported (and unpaid), especially at particularly bad companies.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by sandworm101 on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:13PM (#27962993)
>> The average Japanese employee

Employee is now a loaded word. Does this statistic include contractors or just hired "employees"? A great many workers in the US, from delivery drivers to doctors, are no longer actual employees. Do their hours count?

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by ryan_lane on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:09PM (#27968209)
Not every company gives summer and winter breaks. These companies also have awful leave policies (on average less than 10 days for companies with breaks). None of them provide sick leave (you must use your standard leave for sick days).

Overtime, until very recently, went uncounted and was unpaid. So the statistics you quote are almost certainly very wrong.

Recently the government has been cracking down on overtime (and especially on unpaid overtime), and requires companies to track overtime. It's only considered excessive overtime if it's more than 45 hours extra hours a month, to give you an understanding of just how much people are working.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by fomine3 on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @03:27AM (#27969614)
Recently at the same time, gov also enforces every employee must take at least 5 leave days in a year. What's happened in smaller companies is that they removed holidays at summer (exact: Obon) and at the end of year, and enforces employee to take leave days at the removed holidays exactly. Awful.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by adventured on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:19PM (#27962154)
Japan also doesn't report its work hours fully. The notorious 12 hour work days in Japan are not commonly reported as such. American workers by contrast are (properly) penny counters when it comes to overtime, shift differential, et al. Every hour they work over is going to get counted and credited. The US has stricter labor laws at this point than Japan does.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by newfriend on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:22PM (#27962196)
This list is useless.

If you compared two families using this same system:

* Family A - 1 worker, 40 hours per week, 1 non-worker

* Family B - 2 workers, 20 hours per week each

You'd get an average of 40 vs 20, which makes it appear as though Family A works "more" than Family B.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by MattGaiser on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:24AM (#27960570)
Does it demand just long hours or also a certain level of busyness?

As walking around with a clipboard looks a lot more busy than typing.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by namelessoracle on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:46AM (#27960887)
Having worked in a data center. The "walk around with the clipboard" kinda still happens. Except its a tablet that syncs up with an actual database instead of lots of useless paperwork. Easy enough to look just as busy with the tablet.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by zeeZ on Monday July 26, 2021 @12:17PM (#27961306)
You can't stamp a tablet with your hanko, and faxing it is difficult as well. A tablet would require changing a lot of established procedures.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by nitrogen on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:04PM (#27964666)
Could there one day be a stamp that also has an RFID/HSM inside, that signs things digitally but gives the same UX?
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by panda88888 on Monday July 26, 2021 @07:06PM (#27966588)
Like an amiibo?
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by keewee7 on Monday July 26, 2021 @12:04PM (#27961139)
>I sometimes wonder if Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers

Japan is placed somewhere in the upper middle among OECD countries when it comes to average working hours per year and the percentage of workers working more than 60 hours per week.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by newfriend on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:32PM (#27962342)
Isn't it weird then that there are so many stories of massively overworked workers in Japan?

I wonder if those statistics are wrong, or perhaps misleading.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by pixl97 on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:44PM (#27962521)
Using that same example, you could consider American statistics misleading. US studies show that wage theft by corporations is a multi billion dollar a year industry. Things like that lead to underreporting of actual hours worked, hence, skewing statistics.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by fomine3 on Monday July 26, 2021 @08:37PM (#27967287)
There were (or are) many workers work overtime without salary paid, they would be won't displayed in statistics.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by dfxm12 on Monday July 26, 2021 @02:01PM (#27962800)
There are a large number of workers in Japan. Even a mid-range percentage of a large number could be "so many".

By all means, the statistics could very well be wrong or misleading, but the number of stories you've heard isn't really evidence.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by lmm on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @12:57AM (#27968800)
You cannot find any useful information about Japan in English. For some reason orientalism makes people abandon all common sense.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by ensiferum on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:45AM (#27960874)
You might be onto something. I read in a book about the world's economic history and why the industrial revolution started in the UK that one of the likely reasons was the rising expense of labour which forced businesses to then find more efficient ways to work which lead to machines and industrialization. So basically In any setting with a surplus of cheap labour this incentive simply isn't there.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by chaorace on Monday July 26, 2021 @12:11PM (#27961207)
I'm not sure if I buy that logic. The U.S. is also on the high side, in terms of average annual hours worked.

If we tried to extrapolate that hypothesis, shouldn't it imply that countries with considerably lower averages (e.g.: Germany, France, Sweden) ought to be considerably further ahead in automation than they currently are?

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by CerebralCerb on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:29PM (#27962309)
I do not know how automation is measured, but a couple Americans I've met here in Norway has said that automation is higher here.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by imtringued on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @07:44AM (#27971267)
Well, Japan has deflation/extremely low inflation which encourages bullshit jobs as people are desperate to work anywhere.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by samstave on Monday July 26, 2021 @12:39PM (#27961604)
Having built out infra in Japan - it was a really strange experience, esp WRT dealing with Data Centers...

There was this one data center in Tokyo that we needed to put stuff into - and we needed a GPS antenna on the roof of the DC piped down to our cage...

The DC itself was the most aesthetically beautiful DC I have been to; Bamboo forest and waterfall in the lobby, black granite everywhere, the receptionists were two beautiful women... The place was pristine in look and super super clean.

We met with the execs that ran it and they agreed to all our requests - to pull lines from the roof to our cage, etc...

But in the end, they said yes to everything, but didnt actually do anything that was requested.

It was a waste of a trip (aside from the fun we had while not doing work), but it was stunning how much work was turned down based on them saying yes, but not actually doing any of the work requested...

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by tovej on Monday July 26, 2021 @01:26PM (#27962245)
This might be a cultural/linguistic barrier you went up against. It might also not be related to what happened to you, but it feels like it is.

Japanese use a lot of back-channel chatter when they talk to indicate that they are actively listening (Auzuchi). This includes saying "Yes" to indicate "Yes, I understand what you are saying" instead of "Yes, I agree that we should do as you are suggesting". They may not always indicate disagreement by saying "No" either, but simply by not committing to your suggestion when its their turn to talk (or some other, subtler expression than "No", such as a head tilt and an intake of breath)

This active listening behavior has apparently led to similar misunderstandings before.

Of course, if you made sure you actually came to a clear agreement with the execs, it's an entirely different story.

Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by retrac on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:40PM (#27965159)
True. Cliche almost. More cultural than linguistic. Plenty of (usually different) contexts in America or the UK where "Mhm", "sure", and "we are looking forward to moving ahead with that" means nuh-uh.
Re:Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and ... by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @08:44AM (#27971730)
I've seen a similar situation, I went to visit a Japanese supplier in the UK with a mutual customer. The customer went with a long list of demands which were all agreed to.

After the meeting the customer was very upbeat but in the end the supplier never did anything they had promised.

It was interesting to observe this as a somewhat independent outsider. I came away with the impression that the people at the supplier had some disdain for their customer.