How much time do you spend on HN?
HN is a social network for folks who are interested in technology and general interest topics -- much like other social networks.
Do you think that people can use HN "responsibly"? The feed is algorithmic and designed to surface topics to elicit responses/engagement with the community.
Reddit, on the other hand, has been a difficult addiction for me to break. It's gradually been growing into an alternative social media platform, and every new feature addition to reddit indicates such a transition.
It's still funny that redditors seem to be self-aware of their reddit addiction but somehow perceive Facebook et al to be worse. Different strokes for different folks, but at the end of the day, the mechanisms of addiction are similar regardless of the platform.
So to reduce the addiction by slowing things down further, I started reading best HN stories on my kindle. Apart from sweet e-paper goodness it also allows me to assimilate the knowledge in comments which we all know is the real gold using clipping.
I've hosted it as a service too[1].
HN can be a time draw, but it's based on a somewhat transparent vote/flag system. Features of other social media sites/apps like A/B testing, personalization, variably spaced notifications, daily digests to draw you in are features that are extraordinarily well designed for our dopamine-reward system.
However, I also can't deny that I've genuinely learned a lot from links shared on HN, and I can also attribute nearly my entire push to eliminate social media from my life to HN.
Additionally, HN, like a few other "hobby forums" I belong to, doesn't try to manipulate me to spend more time on the site so it can show me more ads. It only shows me content that other users have posted and shared -- unlike Facebook or Instagram, I don't see an ad every 2-3 posts or comments. That means something to me. Right now, all of those "hobby forums" teach me more about things I care about than they stress me out or piss me off or steal my time. Toward the end, Facebook was just a thing that ate up 10-15 minutes of my time multiple times per day. I can at least point to genuinely interesting facts I've learned from browsing HN.
And most importantly, I mostly do it during work hours anyway :-).
I don't think that's entirely fair. For instance, posts with a large number of comments or a high ratio of comments to votes (I can't remember which) are actually penalized, since that is an indicator that the topic is controversial. The flag feature is another example in that it is a way for users to veto low value posts that might otherwise get high engagement.
1) are unproductive 2) I do not enjoy 3) are pathological (This includes things that float around in your head and create negative thoughts after you do it. coming back to a very negative political argument as an example of this)
I'm not perfect at applying them but it has dramatically improved my life because it has given me a tool to evaluate social media use And I have successfully ramped down use of social media that made my life worse.
I tend think of social media as non-anonymous (onymous?), because it seems far from a "real" social interaction when it is a faceless (possibly non-human) text account. But could just be me redefining things.
Too much :)
HN is a good laboratory to see if your suggestions work. If it doesnt work on the few thousand here mindlessly scrolling and jabbering away where is it going to work on 2 billion.
The chimp troupe is fucked.
I think GP's important insight here is that people need to start being selective about their social media engagement and ditching their smartphones entirely.
I've used a flip phone for a couple of years now and I would never go back to a smartphone. Having a rich interface to the internet in my pocket is too addictive and does not enrich my life at all. More importantly, I feel like I'm part of the solution to the world's vanishing privacy problem. Yes, I'm just 1 person without a smartphone against 1,000 with smartphones, but by existing this way, I am preserving a lifestyle of deliberate technology use that I know is smarter, healthier, and worth preserving.
The problem is that ordinary people have absolutely no concept whatsoever of what all goes into an app like Facebook. They load it on their phones, open it up, and it's just a magical screen that shows them images and text. There's no understanding of it beyond that. They don't know that there is a huge office building in California full of thousands of some of the smartest people on earth who spend their entire working lives and billions of dollars to figure out how to hack your brain more effectively.
Big tech really needs the Upton Sinclair treatment. But even then I doubt people will care.
It's WAY more basic than most people are willing to live with, but it's been working surprisingly well for me. Like I said in my original comment, there are definitely some inconveniences, no way around that, but it's been worth it.
Honestly, the biggest downside to using a flip phone is that you start noticing exactly how much people are on their phones and it becomes both creepy and annoying. You start to feel like you're the last man standing in a zombie movie.
One thing I particularly like about the Sunbeam phone is that it's sold my a small American company with amazing customer service. I asked a question about the phone via the contact form on the website and got a prompt and very thoughtful answer from one of the owner's of the company.
Same. And I've got 2 new ones in the box sitting in my closet should this one break. I'll never buy a new phone again until Apple releases another 4 inch screen. The new "mini" iPhones are literally the size of an iPhone 6.
What do you do all day that is so different? I use social media (and this website) to kill time. I have too much time as it is to do nothing/nothing to capture my attention, I don't need more of it just wishing I was doom scrolling on Instagram.
At least on this website I learn stuff periodically throughout the day.
I read (paper books) more, exercise more, started doing yoga more frequently. I've made it a point to call friends more too. At this stage in my life, time is at premium so I think we're in very different situations.
I believe the main problem with those social media apps is not an issue of time, but of productivity and determination/will-power. Think of Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, etc... These are not social networks exactly, but all contain elements from it. I've deleted my Facebook account about 6 years ago now and slowly got off all the other ones after. Now I only use RSS to follow websites I care about. At first I felt like I'm out of a lot of loops and circles of friends, but I later realized that it was all useless anyway, people who I care about and who cared about me still text or call me. I didn't need to know about every little random thing that happens in the world unless I specifically choose to know about it. It later felt really liberating. People were taking about who marked who safe and I just managed with a text message. People talk endlessly about how good/bad social media is and I'm totally out of the entire conversation. Still to this day I meet people who find it very weird that I'm not on Facebook, or if they are as well not on Facebook then probably because they have Reddit/Tiktok/etc.
I can't stress this enough, but I really felt like my productivity was fading away about 6 years ago, after quitting I find the energy to work on the most random stuff that take weeks of work, I don't get interrupted and my interest doesn't fade away from over exposure to random stuff (even if interesting). I've asked friends who felt the same way to try to delete Tiktok (and video games from their PCs) for a month to try to work on something and they all reported great results. Every single one said that they wouldn't have been able to do it if they didn't delete app X.
My point is this; it's not about time, it's about what you get exposed to. If you feel unproductive (compared to what you were before) or think "what could 10 minutes on Tiktok do", try deleting these apps one by one. The difficulty won't be the same for all people, but it'll be manageable for EVERYONE. It's not about being on your phone all the time, it's about being on your phone because you want to do something, not just for mindless scrolling.
(I intentionally did not mention tracking or privacy reasons from this because that's whole other beast of a topic.)
I love this quote from Stephen Fry:
> Jacking out of the matrix would cast one as a hero of the kind of dystopian film that proved popular in the 70s, Logan’s Run, Zardoz, Soylent Green, Fahrenheit 451 … on the run from The Corporation, with the foot soldiers of The System hard on your heels. We really are starting to live in that kind of movie, mutatis mutandis, so surely it’s time to join the Rebels, the Outliers, the Others who live beyond the Wall and read forbidden books, sing forbidden songs and think forbidden thoughts in defiance of The One.
Social media are designed to be addicting. [https://www.economist.com/1843/2016/10/20/the-scientists-who...] They take advantage of the same techniques that casinos use to keep gamblers pulling the lever on slot machines.
I submit that the majority of adults use social media sites are using them "responsibly" (i.e. occasionally and non-obsessively). My opinion (with no real evidence) is that the addictiveness is overblown for most adults.
Any little piece of downtime where folks might have to be alone with their thoughts, or make small talk with people they don't already know, you can see people mindlessly grabbing their phones. You see this in line at the grocery store, kids and adults in school while do this while class starts, or the very second it ends.
You see a shocking number of people in restaurants who appear to be on dates where both people are glued to their phone. I'd certainly classify that as addictive behavior -- i.e. when a healthy young man is more interested in what's on his phone than he is in the attractive woman sitting across the table from him. Something is very wrong there.
> I'd certainly classify that as addictive behavior -- i.e. when a healthy young man is more interested in what's on his phone than he is in the attractive woman sitting across the table from him. Something is very wrong there.
We can definitely debate online life vs "in the flesh" - but it seems small minded to me for you to suggest someones preferences for experience are only the result of unhealthy addiction.
Many would argue your allowance of modern life, from TVs to cars to in city restaurants/etc. That you (or that person, i guess) didn't make a home cooked meal, or go experience nature together - to be an addiction to the modern and lacking in down to earth, honest and real connections.
Not that i agree with any of that of course. My point is that i think there is a perfectly valid possible course where someone prefers to experience their life in cities, in the woods, or in more virtual spaces.
The reality though, and where i agree with you - is that i don't think we actually have a virtual space that _isn't_ fueled entirely be addiction. Powered by highly financed and motivated teams of people.
I just think we need to be cognizant of alternative life styles. Just because commonly certain lifestyles result in unhealthy behavior doesn't inherently mean that lifestyle shouldn't be followed at all. If that was the case i think this argument should probably switch to avoiding much of modern life. As it is full of unhealthy habits and poor balances. We'll be living in the woods pretty soon if we can't recognize the possible healthy and balanced ways to live in the unhealthy-unbalanced minefield that is so many alternate forms of life.
Our opinions are being shaped by all sorts of propaganda we encounter on every corner online and it has never been easier to end up radicalized. I think it's definitely not under control.
Here is some actual evidence.
> Across mobile devices and computers, GlobalWebIndex reports that we now spend an average of 2 hours and 24 minutes per person, per day using social media [1] (in the US, it is 2:03)
[1] https://wearesocial.com/blog/2020/01/digital-2020-3-8-billio...
Post your usage stats. No need to guess about it when you can look it up in an instant and verify.
The only realistic way to reduce the grip of the these technologies on your mind is to use fewer of them and completely opt out of the worst offenders, like FaceBook, and TickTok.
I've deleted most of my social media accounts at this point and gone back to a more basic phone and my life is noticeably better for it. Sure there are some inconveniences and some people think I'm a weirdo, but it seems like a small price to pay to get my brain back.
So much of the power these technologies have over us is not that they're so useful or wonderful, but that there's a social expectation that we use them, i.e. people sending social invites via FaceBook, stigma against the "green bubble people", etc. We use them initially because of social pressure and then get hooked. If even a small and stubborn minority opted out of some of these technologies, say 9% of the population, reasonably distributed across ages and demographics, a lot of these expectations would disappear or at least reduce.