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Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by Archelaos on Friday July 16, 2021 @08:37AM (#27855613)
What makes the dark forest hypothesis not so conving to me is that it has the presupposition that it is indeed possible to hide. An advanced civilization close to us that is surveying the sky for signs of life would have very likely identified earth as a very promissing candidate due to the presence of methane and oxygen in its atmosphere at the same time. So our star system would have long been under surveillance, before we had the chance to develop a technology that would reliable disguise our presence.

If such a technology is possible at all, only the very first advanced civilization had the ability to hide from all others. And only if they were able to develop it before any other civilization had been able to track them.

To some extent it might nevertheless be a reasonable strategy to keep as quiet as possible. But this strategy is less and less useful for the latecomers. If they were already tracked by a multitude of other advanced civilization they would hardly benefit from keeping quiet. Unless they (wrongly) think that they are an early advanced civilization.

However, if a couple of these civilizations start to openly seek contact to others, what can the hidden ones do? If a hidden civilization starts to fight one of these latecomers, it would need to leave its cover and make itself known to all other civilizations in its vicinity. If it follows the dark forst hypothesis, it could only do so, when it is sure that it is the only dangerous civilization in its forest.

This leaves me with the following alternatives:

- The forest is dark, because there is only one civilization out there that is very capable in hiding and has the ability to exterminate any latecomer efficiently and without traces.

- The forest appears dark, because it is thinly populated and we just have not looked enough for the others.

- We are the only ones in our cosmic vicinity.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by jerf on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:46AM (#27856172)
I agree with your logic but would add one more thing to it: There is no compelling reason to wait until a planet conclusively proves it has intelligence on it to nuke it into oblivion with a kinetic kill projectile. You don't really know how long it will take for an intelligent species that could compete with you to arise. Humans have moved pretty quickly on cosmological scales, there's no particular reason to believe we're moving at the max speed and a lot of reason to think otherwise. Compared to the amount of energy you can obtain over cosmological time periods, the expenditure of a kinetic kill projectile is nothing.

In fact, if you don't mind waiting a bit, it can be almost trivial. All you have to do is basically get a factory to the target system; it can use local resources to build a kinetic kill projectile efficiently out of a big, local hunks of rock and local hydrogen. Launching near-light-speed projectiles from lightyears away is the emergency "oh crap! They're smart already!" option. Killing a planet that only has dinosaurs on it is dead easy for these hypothetical intelligences and there's little reason to believe they wouldn't.

So I think the dark forest hypothesis falls down on the fact that not only has Earth been broadcasting loud and clear to the stars that it has life on it ever since the Great Oxygenation Catastrophe, which was somewhere around 2 to 2.5 billion years ago, the Dark Forest theory implies that any surrounding intelligence that arose and was capable of seeing Earth on that time frame should have hit it. That has not happened. And 2.5 billion years is actually significant even on cosmological time scales.

(Also, no, the dinosaur asteroid or other events were not kill projectiles. If an alien intelligence is going to kill-projectile Earth there's no compelling reason to just sort of inconvenience life... it's going to eliminate it. Hypothesizing a race capable of launching projectiles but being too stupid to realize it wouldn't do the job is too precise a level of incompetence to believe in. As they say, there's no kill like overkill.)

Fun science fiction premise... not a solution to the Fermi paradox.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by AnimalMuppet on Friday July 16, 2021 @12:16PM (#27857855)
"Too precise a level of incompetence to believe in." That's the most beautiful wording I have read in some time...
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by jerf on Friday July 16, 2021 @01:03PM (#27858399)
Hat tip: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=615 "That is a very specific level of tired."
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by pharmakom on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:10AM (#27856372)
You don’t destroy the system because you want to inhabit it yourself. This assumes that life is looking for similar habitats and that it’s not simpler to create an artificial planet anyway.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by crowbahr on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:37AM (#27856668)
If there is oxygen breathing carbon based intelligent life that wants our planet they could've easily spotted and taken it anytime within the past 2 billion years.

It seems safe to say that there isn't life that wants our planet.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by edgyquant on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:52AM (#27857582)
Why would anyone come from light years away to inhabit a planet. It would be cheaper to just build habitats or colonize a planet in their solar system. There is almost nothing we can provide to a civilization capable of traversing between start systems.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by crowbahr on Friday July 16, 2021 @12:07PM (#27857753)
All resources are scarce.

But if nobody wants our world and they're scared of intelligent life then just send out Von Neumann probes to ensure intelligence isn't showing up elsewhere. First mover's advantage nullifies the entire dark forest.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by edgyquant on Friday July 16, 2021 @03:47PM (#27860444)
relatively scarce, sure. There are millions of times more of all the resources Earth has between us and any civilization coming from light years away. By the time they needed Earths resources they’d have to have gobbled up large chunks of, if not the whole, Galaxy.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by crowbahr on Friday July 16, 2021 @04:10PM (#27860683)
Right but the whole premise of the Fermi Paradox is that it doesn't take long (on a galactic scale) to gobble up the entire galaxy using STL transit if you're dealing with a constantly growing civilization.

So either they'd - already have gotten here & already have destroyed the earth when we showed intelligence OR - already have gotten here & don't care about destroying intelligence.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by krapp on Friday July 16, 2021 @04:48PM (#27861032)
>So either they'd - already have gotten here & already have destroyed the earth when we showed intelligence OR - already have gotten here & don't care about destroying intelligence.

Or... civilizations don't experience unbounded growth over millions of years across millions of light years to begin with.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by edgyquant on Friday July 16, 2021 @04:43PM (#27860974)
Well okay but I believe that premise is flawed. It still takes millions of years for one (which is a long time on human timescales) and it’s more likely civilizations Balkanize and begin fighting each other if they even were to be so resource driven they wished to colonize the galaxy that quick which I don’t think we have any reason to believe is true.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by tjalfi on Friday July 16, 2021 @04:16PM (#27860740)
> Why would anyone come from light years away to inhabit a planet.

Many motives from the age of exploration could apply - imperialism, religious beliefs, religious or political differences, cultural exchange, scientific discovery, competition with others, etc. People don't always take the cheapest option; the same could be true of aliens.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by edgyquant on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:57PM (#27863018)
This seems to be projecting a human trait that is itself obsolete to us unto civilizations that share no common culture or genetics and are leagues ahead of us technologically speaking. Not to mention the age of exploration was driven by economics. Seems foolish to me.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by belter on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:33AM (#27857330)
Or maybe that carbon based intelligent life that wanted our planet it's us.

We were almost wiped out after the first large impact. The impact that happened a few millennia after we killed all those awful looking smarty octopus that lived in this planet. But we could not defend against the large Comet, it come from behind the Sun and way too fast. We had minutes notice.

Some microbes survived...And here we are again typing on our keyboards. :-)

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by tjalfi on Friday July 16, 2021 @04:08PM (#27860659)
The aliens in Scott Westerfeld's Fine Prey invade Earth for a novel reason. It's ROT-13 (https://rot13.com/) encoded to avoid any spoilers.

Gur nyvraf ner ynathntr areqf. Gurl bpphcvrq Rnegu fb gung uhznaf jbhyq perngr n arj qvnyrpg bs gurve ynathntr.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by wait_a_minute on Friday July 16, 2021 @01:31PM (#27858771)
Or they did want it and used it for seeding more complex life so they could eventually create homo sapiens. Like the start of the film Prometheus.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by crowbahr on Friday July 16, 2021 @04:40PM (#27860946)
Which would mean that the dark forest is still false right?
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by im3w1l on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:31AM (#27856602)
If I use humanity as a model, then we don't see other great apes as dangerous competitors. Rather we see them as interesting curiosities. We want them to stay alive. But it's hard to resist the desire to turn their habitats into something economically productive.

Colonizing other planets and making them into homes for aliens long before a native civilization has a chance to arise seems more plausible than just destroying them.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by jerf on Friday July 16, 2021 @12:52PM (#27858236)
For the purposes of this conversation, colonizing other planets effectively is destroying them. After that, no natural intelligent competitor will arise and surprise you, because you're right there to keep an eye on everything.

(Of course, you may still have any amount of conflict with your fellow settlers, or your someone in your original species' descendants two systems over, but that's a completely different conversation.)

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by DonaldPShimoda on Friday July 16, 2021 @01:53PM (#27859085)
(Major spoilers for The Expanse below.)

> There is no compelling reason to wait until a planet conclusively proves it has intelligence on it to nuke it into oblivion with a kinetic kill projectile.

Or send a technologically engineered molecule that can hijack single-cellular life to help establish your needed technology in the target solar system.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by jerf on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:54PM (#27859842)
That's a variant of what I discuss in another reply, but well underscores my point of just how easy this is if you happen to get there anywhere in the 2.0-2.4 billion window Earth has had prior to intelligence. If you colonize the system in any manner, be it biological, technological, whatever, for Dark Forest purposes that's equivalent to destruction; there is no longer a threat of natural competing life.

You've got two major approaches: Fling a kinetic kill projectile, or if you have the tech to get "something" into the target system at roughly orbital velocities, send some machines to do the job with local resources.

None of these things appear to have happened in Earth's past. Ironically, trying to spin yarns in which they did anyhow still end up countering the Dark Forest hypothesis, because all such attempts must either include significant probabilities of failure of the attempts or the possibility that the life out there is benevolent (to some degree, at least sufficient to avoid simply wiping us out, which on this scale is "benevolence" despite whatever else they may be doing) which itself would imply the forest isn't that dark.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by tshaddox on Friday July 16, 2021 @03:13PM (#27860067)
It’s funny that that wouldn’t have been a spoiler if you hadn’t mentioned the name of the work.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by jeremyjh on Friday July 16, 2021 @09:50AM (#27856209)
How far away from earth is it still possible to detect oxygen and/or methane levels in the atmosphere?
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by david-gpu on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:07AM (#27856343)
If I was a technologically advanced civilization, I would send robotic Von Neumann probes around the galaxy to keep tabs on things at close proximity.

If I was also murderous, I would have programmed the probes to destroy any signs of life.

So, the fact that we are still alive after broadcasting the presence of life through out atmosphere for the last couple billion years is quite reassuring.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by pharke on Friday July 16, 2021 @11:03AM (#27856986)
Wouldn't that be the most difficult and expensive way to simply monitor for life or technosignatures? Compare that to simply (relatively speaking) building massive space based optical and radio observatories that can observe every visible star. The light reaching you has already made the trip, you just have to collect it. If you were murderous, you could launch an attack from your home system rather than waiting for the probes to spread from system to system.

Granted there could be some technical limitations that prevent you from observing certain systems but that pool will be much smaller than an entire galaxy of stars.

Also, don't forget that a Von Neumann probe is at a disadvantage when it arrives in a system since you want to send the minimum number of probes to each star and then have them replicate on arrival. If your probe accidentally shows up in a system that contains an advanced civilization capable of detecting and capturing it then you've given away the fact of your existence and your intent along with all the information that can be gained by studying the probe.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by mLuby on Friday July 16, 2021 @06:14PM (#27861838)
So have your replicators approach a system from an unexpected vector; one course correction in interstellar space should be enough.

Also I'd expect the probes would communicate with the homeworld via relays (where they were replicated) rather than directly, so it'd take a fair amount of effort to unravel a replicator network unless you caught one of the very first probes.

And also it'd be conspicuous if there was a volume of space in your network where your probes always failed.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by wait_a_minute on Friday July 16, 2021 @01:36PM (#27858841)
I wonder if everyone is therefore incentivized to not send out such probes, then. Since no one can guarantee they are advanced enough that their probe won’t get captured by someone more advanced who just sends back a scarier probe as a thank you gift.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by minitoar on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:11AM (#27856389)
You just need enough light to do spectroscopy. I’m not really aware of a limit other than being in our light cone.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by jamiek88 on Friday July 16, 2021 @10:04AM (#27856319)
Light years with the right telescope. It’s just spectroscopy.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by jeremyjh on Saturday July 17, 2021 @08:27PM (#27869871)
Yes but only a tiny fraction of our sun's light would pass through earth's atmosphere on its way out of the solar system, I didn't think spectroscopy would be possible very far away.
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by yreg on Sunday July 18, 2021 @06:32PM (#27877268)
Why get a factory to the target system when you can launch kill projectiles to all the systems in the galaxy from home?
Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by sangnoir on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:50PM (#27859782)
> An advanced civilization close to us that is surveying the sky for signs of life would have very likely identified earth as a very promissing candidate due to the presence of methane and oxygen in its atmosphere at the same time.

Signs of carbon-based life - who is to say all forms of life are carbon-based? The universe is vast, what are the odds of aliens being in our vicinity and time (light cone) stumbling upon our galaxy or star?

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by joshuahedlund on Friday July 16, 2021 @05:22PM (#27861384)
> Signs of carbon-based life - who is to say all forms of life are carbon-based?

There's a limited number of elements, and their abundance in the universe decreases rapidly beyond the first few. Carbon is by far the most advantageous for life due to its vast ability to form complex molecules. Silicon might be a distant second. If there is other life in the universe, and if there's nothing special about us, it might not all be carbon-based, but it's extremely likely that a large amount of it will be.

Re:Beyond “Fermi’s Paradox” XVI: What Is the “Dark Forest” H... by inlikealamb on Friday July 16, 2021 @02:00PM (#27859167)
>However, if a couple of these civilizations start to openly seek contact to others, what can the hidden ones do?

Stay hidden or destroy anyone close enough to put you at risk along with themselves. This is a spoiler, but IIRC from the books the ultimate safety net was to make your solar system not only invisible... but impenetrable in either direction but essentially trapping yourself in a black hole... thus removing yourself from the equation and hopefully satiating anyone watching.

The time scales and distances involved meant that you weren't really perceived as a threat until you approached the ability to reach light speed, which made you stick out enough to be noticed in far corners of the universe. We broadcast radio, but it's not loud or far-reaching enough to be noticed by the far-out civilization destroying overlords. It was loud enough for a different nearby civilization to come destroy us in an attempt to save themselves from being destroyed along with us.

Of course, when applied in reality who the hell knows.