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Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by captainmuon on Friday July 09, 2021 @06:35AM (#27782281)
Especially at universities I don't see the reason for invasive e-proctoring.

When I was studying (physics, early 2000s in Germany), we didn't even have a honor system, we had the assumption that everybody is there to learn something. If you cheat, you harm yourself.

Progress was assessed by weekly excercise sheets where you were encouraged to work together with others, and to learn how to use the library to find solutions. After each semester there would be a test for each course, and you would get a certificate if passed. Attendence to lectures was usually not checked. The tests were "closed" and watched, but if you were determined you could probably have easily cheated. Anyway regular cheaters would have failed miserably at the latest in the oral exams or the lab courses.

I think a major function of universities is to teach people to be independent and responsible, and if we school-ize them we loose a lot.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by jordanpg on Friday July 09, 2021 @06:43AM (#27782329)
The real story here is that cheating is rampant, everyone knows it, and that the universities (as opposed to individual professors) are not prepared to do what is necessary to stop it.

I'm speaking, of course, of measures like expulsion. Too much of a hit to the bottom line, too much messy litigation, and too much bad PR.

All of this is another way of making your point, which is that the core mission of universities has drifted away from idealized learning to big business and sports.

I suspect the entire thing needs to be nuked from orbit before it can be rebuilt and I'm happy to see COVID accelerating the process.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by gambiting on Friday July 09, 2021 @06:50AM (#27782366)
Again, I think the problem is elsewhere. Where I'm from(Poland) cheating is rampant and universities have absolutely no trouble kicking people out over it. Got caught cheating? Good bye, apply again next year. It doesn't lead to litigation or messy PR. Maybe it's because all universities are free to attend so no one can argue that they paid for something they aren't getting - all they are losing is their own time.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by basisword on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:20AM (#27782532)
I went to university a bit later in life. When I was in high school smartphones weren’t a thing yet and cheating in exams was difficult and not common. At university cheating seemed rampant and easy. It was easy to spot the potential cheaters but not easy to prove they were cheating so they got away with it. You just go to the bathroom (in a long exam they can’t exactly stop you from this) and you have all your notes on your phone. There were people I’m surprised got into the university in the first place getting really good grades because of this. It was frustrating but I’m not sure what universities can do in this case. It seems to me that the “exam” process needs rethought entirely. I’m not sure how it could be changed but it is far too easy to cheat now. Like a lot of things in life too, the dishonest people tend to get away with it and manage to succeed while some portion of the honest people work very hard and struggle.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by ttonelli on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:00AM (#27782786)
Maybe making questions that you have to think about instead of just looking up the answer would help?
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by unishark on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:43AM (#27783565)
You need to give a range of questions from challenging like that to easy regurgitation to discern their level of understanding and be able to assign them an appropriate grade.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by zo1 on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:38AM (#27784113)
Why do you need a grade at all? Fail, pass, distinction. You either know the answers because you know and understand all the material, or you have no business functioning in that field period.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by unishark on Saturday July 10, 2021 @01:11AM (#27791271)
More granularity is still valuable though, since in topics where deep understanding is needed, the shallower levels of understanding are required to master the deeper. E.g., you need to be able recognize an integral before you can solve them. Which in turn you need to be able to do in canned rote mechanical cases before you can handle general word problems that involve assembling and solving integrals. And not all subsequent classes or careers will necessarily require the full mastery of the topics in a class. Plus it's good to have such detailed feedback for both the student and the professor to focus on shortcomings.

Another issue with the purportedly "optimal" testing situation of creating unique challenging and deep questions for each test (and even for each student). It's difficult to make good questions. Sometimes they are too hard, are not as clear as they seem since students might misunderstand and go off in the wrong direction giving you some trivial answer to a similar-looking question. The safest questions are the most shallow. And deeper problem-solving questions may take a few iterations of "testing" (as in trying them out on exams and seeing how students do). So what seems like the best kind of question will actually be the riskiest and least-tested.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by toomanybeersies on Sunday July 11, 2021 @09:06AM (#27800481)
Isn't that how good tests should be written anyway?

It's like having unit tests and integration tests in software testing.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by basisword on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:35AM (#27783042)
Depends on the subject. In a long form essay where you need to cite sources or technical details you could make a big difference to your score by quickly looking these up. Nobody can go into the exam blind but they can improve their answers significantly by looking up the details that others have to spend a long time trying to remember. For example in an English exam, direct quotations from literature. Or in a law exam, case names.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by LeifCarrotson on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:53AM (#27783668)
It sounds like the root problem is that your exam grade is boosted more by a direct quote or case name more than by your comprehension of the message from the quote or by the case name rather than the precedent established by the case.

It should not matter if you have the exact line "To be or not to be" verbatim if you can explain what Shakespeare tried to convey about suffering and the meaning of life. More importantly, you should be allowed to have the book! You can't expect to jump from confusion to comprehension by reading the whole thing during the exam.

It shouldn't matter if you can regurgitate "Miranda v. Arizona, 1966" or not if you can explain when a person is giving voluntary statements or is under custodial interrogation. Access to the full PACER database wouldn't enable you to understand those distinctions.

And as comes up here all the time, it shouldn't matter in a whiteboard interview whether you have the arguments reversed in your strcmp(), an editor, compiler, or reference (or just running the code) would show you which way it was supposed to be. The important thing is the planning, algorithm tradeoffs, data structures, and debugging process that you used to write the thing. Heck, it shouldn't even matter if you can remember that the function is called 'strcmp'.

Reliance on these factoids usually indicates that the grader is taking the easy way out - scanning for expected quotes, for case names, or compiling the code and seeing if it works or not - rather than gauging comprehension. I'll grant that it is far easier to do the former, but that's not what the goal is supposed to be.

Edit: What can't be allowed is regurgitating someone else's comprehension of the question while having none of your own. If that's a possibility, you need to either ask different questions or have some way to prevent people from accessing that explanation. Remote exams need more of the former and less of the latter.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by Fredej on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:49AM (#27783153)
But why should you not be allowed to look them up?

Isn't that just testing for memory rather than comprehension?

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by kwhitefoot on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:15AM (#27783874)
Beats me. A well designed exam asks one to apply knowledge not to regurgitate it. You should be able to look up any of the supporting information but you also need to be able to organize that information.

All of my BSc Applied Physics exams including the final (Exeter Uni. 1977) were open note and this really helped sort the competent students from those who thought that they were at university to learn facts. The latter brought fifty litre rucksacks full of notes in to the finals and without exception either failed entirely or scraped through to third class honours.

They seemed to have not realized that the faculty would not set questions that could be directly answered by looking up the question in one's notes. The best example was the final quantum mechanics paper which did not contain a single question that had a direct answer in the notes we had taken or the textbooks we had used.

My most recent exam was a C# course and that exam was open book. It wasn't as extreme as my QM final but had basically the same idea: apply what you have learnt.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by bluGill on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:29AM (#27783457)
> Or in a law exam, case names.

I want my lawyer to double check the sources. Even if he has the case name memorized, joe vs sally is easy to get confused with joe vs sue (or sally vs joe...), and those details are important to get right, lest I lose the case on a technicality.

There is a time to memorize details, but for the most part I want people who verify before making a statement.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by mkl on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:41AM (#27783550)
How do you have your phone with you? Stash it in the bathroom? At my university the invigilators make you show what's in your pockets before and after going to the bathroom (which has itself been checked, and which has a log of people and times), and you can't take anything out (e.g. formula sheet to secretly copy somehow-bathroom-stashed notes onto) or bring anything in. Phones are in bags up the front of the room, inaccessible. The kinds of things you're talking about very rarely happens, and consequences include fines and academic penalties.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by atatatat on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:46AM (#27783589)
> The kinds of things you're talking about very rarely happens, and consequences include fines and academic penalties.

You are making assumptions based on your own experiences, and they are incorrect.

You have a lot of faith in for-profit entities.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by mkl on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:06PM (#27789522)
That sentence is specifically describing my university, like the sentence before it. Nothing in my comment is about for-profit entities.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by blagie on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:47AM (#27783603)
I'm not sure that would fly in the Western world.

Poland has a completely different culture from Western Europe or the US. It's rapidly Westernizing, but it's still a world of difference. I think it's a pity. I prefer Slavic cultures to Western. One of the things which bugs me most is how modern Poland is starting to have the same surface, insincere friendliness as the West.

- EU membership is clearly a net win, but doesn't help preserve Polish culture.

- Many of the cultural differences are not recognized on either side -- people say the same things sometimes, but it takes deep digging to understand that they mean very different things.

- Historically, Poles also looked up to and tried to emulate the West, which is part of the reason the culture is shifting so rapidly.

So the change was rapid, but far from complete.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by hobofan on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:11AM (#27783838)
> Good bye, apply again next year.

Apply again next year? In Germany, a university expulsion usually comes with a lifetime ban on studying the same subject again.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by fouc on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:24AM (#27783959)
in Canada you'd likely be unable to get into ANY university with a note about plagiarism in your records.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by corty on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:40AM (#27784143)
Same in Germany, but universities don't always share records. You are supposed to fill in a form on immatriculation where you state previous universities and why/how you left there, and you will get expelled if you lie on that form. However, if you pass your final exam without getting caught, there is a good chance you'll get away with it.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by Grimm1 on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:57AM (#27783712)
Idk cheating in the college I was in (Top #30 US Institution) was punished severely. I fondly remember my Data Structures professor, bluntly telling us she'd end our academic careers if we were caught cheating. Fondly because she was a great professor who clearly had no time or patience for that kind of bs. It was school policy for expulsion, and this is a very well known school.

This of course may have changed dramatically in the last two years given the major shift in how we all live but I would suspect that this is more common than you think.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by ticviking on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:46AM (#27784215)
How many people do you know of who failed a class or were expelled for that kind of thing?

Where there ever any rumors of that kind of thing. In a large enough class someone will be tempted to cheat, and if the school is taking decisive action there will be rumors even if they are making great effort to protect the students privacy and make the discipline a learning experience

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by Grimm1 on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:51PM (#27785715)
Rumors yes, there were rumors of people getting caught cheating, but I didn't know anyone personally.

The people I knew on a personal basis weren't the kind to do that or really care about it enough to do so and without going into a story about the people I know and how we're all doing well in life you'll have to take my word for it.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by Bayart on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:39AM (#27782632)
>Too much of a hit to the bottom line, too much messy litigation, and too much bad PR.

Well, that wouldn't be a problem to the person you're answering to, considering German universities aren't businesses who take people in for capital (both financial and social).

In France it's certainly very easy to get yourself thrown out for cheating or not showing up.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by unishark on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:59AM (#27783730)
Universities will definitely expel cheaters, though they may give a couple chances first (with increasingly-worse penalties like failing grade and violation on transcript). One of the things people are complaining about with this software is people claiming to be wrongly punished.

Typically there's a faculty union or senate which negotiates policies with the administration. Individual professors aren't all alone in the fight. Though they may individually choose to give lax punishments or look the other way.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by asdfasgasdgasdg on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:48AM (#27783609)
A sibling was caught cheating in university. This would have been around ten years ago. He wasn't expelled, but he was suspended for the remainder of the semester and failed on all his classes that term. I don't remember if he finished uni late as a result or did makeup work during the summer.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by ev1 on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:16PM (#27786725)
being forced to do an extra semester costing like 50k+ results in some very interesting incentives, or lawsuits, when profit is involved..
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by fallingknife on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:06AM (#27783272)
That was Germany in the 2000's. This is the USA in the 2020's. College is a game. They are getting rid of even having tests as a requirement for your application. And the admissions process is openly racist, even though this is directly banned by our constitution (for public universities). But don't mention this, or you will be called racist. You will be required to take "distribution requirements" (courses that have nothing to do with what you are there to study) for up to 2 years of credit hours depending on the school. The reason they do this is because department funding is set by the "asses in seats" formula where each student enrolled in the class is assigned a dollar value to the department. And, if you are an unpopular department, these 300 seat 1 level distribution requirement classes will be the vast majority of your funding. Departments typically squabble with each other about how many classes they get to have on the list. And everybody gets an A. Wouldn't want to have a reputation for being hard, or nobody will enroll in your cash cow class. These are all 1 and 2 level courses, which means they are basically high school level, or sometimes not even that. But they are not free like high school! Most people will be deep in debt when they graduate. And there is no way to distinguish yourself. The grades are so inflated that the median GPA is around 3.7 / 4.0! So I can't blame anybody for cheating the system that is cheating them.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by titanomachy on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:37PM (#27785537)
> There is no way to distinguish yourself

If you actually learn something in a class, that distinguishes you from many other students.

I agree though, university is not a good system for determining who is capable and deserves the best jobs. It’s unfortunate that our society leans on it so much as a sorting hat.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by swiley on Friday July 09, 2021 @06:44AM (#27782333)
My calculus 3 professor would pass out tests 10-15 minutes early on test days. He'd dump them right on top of your study materials and expect you to push them out of the way if wanted extra time to study.

Applying a panopticon to children to prevent cheating is questionable since it normalizes authorities using electronics to bully people. Applying it to adults at a university is arguably a human rights violation and a failure to write good course materials.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by stjohnswarts on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:23AM (#27782934)
This is the scary part. Teaching students and younger generations that's it's normal and okay to be surveilled 24/7.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by unishark on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:04AM (#27783778)
instead let's teach them that if they cheat, nothing adverse happens.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by kwhitefoot on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:17AM (#27783889)
Replace exams with vivas and see how far the cheats can get. At least make a viva voce a large proportion of the final score.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by TravisHusky on Friday July 09, 2021 @05:05PM (#27788504)
I have never had an oral exam, but I have always thought it would be great for smaller classes. Basically I would love to have an exam where I sit down with a professor for 30 minutes to an hour and talk about the content and answer questions they ask. I feel like it would be a bit more in-depth while also eliminating the possibility of misunderstanding a mistakenly ambiguous question. I am not sure how realistic that is for a class above about 15 students, and also how things like disabilities would be handled, but I'd love to try it.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by swiley on Friday July 09, 2021 @05:21PM (#27788665)
> Basically I would love to have an exam where I sit down with a professor for 30 minutes to an hour and talk about the content and answer questions they ask.

That would have been fun! The only time I did something like this was when I tested out of one of the intro to programming classes. I was one of the last students to talk to the professor that ran it before he left.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by zajio1am on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:33PM (#27789658)
Most of exams i took during my university studies were oral exams. I definitely prefer them to written exams. They were used even for big classes with 100+ students, professors just declare multiple test dates (each with say 20 timeslots) and students booked to them.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by titanomachy on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:39PM (#27785559)
Probably the best way to evaluate people, I guess it just doesn’t scale that well…
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by kwhitefoot on Monday July 12, 2021 @12:41PM (#27812150)
It seems that the alternatives also don't scale, that's sure why this discussion is happening.

Vivas work,they are just expensive. The alternatives are cheaper but don't work.

Of course it could be that different people have different goals in mind. Some just want the diploma, others want to master the subject. So it depends on what the diploma is supposed to mean. If it just means: turned up then a viva is of course unnecessary and wasteful.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by erik_seaberg on Friday July 09, 2021 @06:55AM (#27782387)
When a university grants a degree, they are attesting that the student has demonstrated mastery of the subject matter, because that’s important to both employers and postgraduate programs. Without that it’s harder to justify paying a university’s price, or spending such a large fraction of your adult life there.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by mannykannot on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:44AM (#27783574)
The notion that higher education is all about self-enlightenment would be more plausible if these institutions did not issue degrees or other certificates and their students would be satisfied with this.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by nicbou on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:31AM (#27782585)
I agree with you, but at the same time, it diminishes the value of a degree, because it no longer certifies that meet certain requirements.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by moron4hire on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:46AM (#27782687)
They already don't certify competence.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by conductr on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:34AM (#27784060)
Which is why employers see undergrad has a filter and not adding value. They either don’t hire or even interview without experience or they look to your internships and accomplishments as a more significant qualification
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by lotsofpulp on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:38AM (#27783064)
Assuming everyone is not constantly cheating and the coursework is somewhat relevant and rigorous, surely they signal a higher probability of at least awareness of the subject matter or ability to learn something.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by fallingknife on Friday July 09, 2021 @08:49AM (#27783156)
You're 0-2 on those assumptions, though.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by moron4hire on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:05AM (#27783264)
Seriously. Even assuming those things--I would say the program I went through was very relevant and I don't think cheating happened very often. It was a really small program and everybody got to know everyone else. So while I can't say for certain, I never saw cheating amongst my friends, nor was ever approached to assist in cheating (though I was frequently asked for help in studying).

The problem is, I knew some of the guys who graduated, with extremely low GPAs, who didn't cheat, have the same degree as me, exited with the same student loan debt as me, and can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. I've ran into some of them working retail jobs back in my home town.

It's a fucking travesty. They had to be saddled with a student loan debt load they would have no chance of paying back. I only paid mine back so early because of a lucky break on an insurance claim. I'd still be paying on them, 20 years later, if I hadn't lost everything I owned in a flood.

Universties talk about how they don't want to be seen as vocational training facilities. Well, they need to admit the reality. Primary education is not preparing people for the work force. We give people a free education for 13 years, and if they want to have economic opportunity, they want to do something more than just manual labor, we can't give them another 2 to 4 years? It's bullshit.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by fallingknife on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:21AM (#27784594)
It's preparing them just as well as primary education + college. It's just that college degrees were more meaningful back when the old people running most companies got them, and employers need a weed out, so we still use it.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by atatatat on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:48AM (#27783605)
> though I was frequently asked for help in studying

Your type of social group is not the one that this behavior happens in.

Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by moron4hire on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:00PM (#27785827)
I'm saying, I knew all the other students in the computer science program on a first name basis. Most of us even partied together. There were really only about 20 or 30 of us. We all knew what each of us were really capable of, and I didn't see anyone have any unexplainable wins in tests or assignments. The people who were failing just transferred to a different program.
Re:Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring by lotsofpulp on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:14AM (#27783327)
I have not been in the education system for 15 years, but I would hope it is true for at least the high end schools in the hard sciences.