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Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by afavour on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:24PM (#27750646)
> It seems our completely untethered tumble into the world of 1984 led by Big Brother and every all-seeing eye on the planet, with Microsoft pushing us through a new window and into a new era with Windows 11.

What a load of hyperbolic junk this is. Microsoft is trying to ensure consistency for people that buy Windows laptops. We can debate whether that is a smart move or not, but descending into 1984 fear-baiting is just nonsense.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by lp0_on_fire on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:38PM (#27750879)
> What a load of hyperbolic junk this is. Microsoft is trying to ensure consistency for people that buy Windows laptops. We can debate whether that is a smart move or not, but descending into 1984 fear-baiting is just nonsense.

Over the past few years we've seen Microsoft adopt increasingly user-hostile practices when it comes to privacy. It's not unreasonable to be concerned that this initiative will morph into something nefarious.

We went from "you need to have a network interface so you can activate the OS" to "Track all the things and phone home" in less than a decade.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by afavour on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:58PM (#27751219)
> It's not unreasonable to be concerned that this initiative will morph into something nefarious.

It kind of is, though. It's a classic slippery slope fallacy. Collecting user telemetry and spying on users via webcams you force hardware manufacturers to install in machines are miles, miles, miles apart from each other. I'm not trying to defend MS's telemetry collection here, I don't like it either. But the extrapolation is hyperbolic.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by ajkdhcb2 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @04:22PM (#27753753)
https://www.engadget.com/2019-03-21-preshow-free-movie-ticke...

>The company has developed a way to track your gaze to make sure you're actually looking at the PreShow commercial. The app also places a green border around the edges of your screen to confirm that it sees you. If you look away for too long, or leave your seat, the ad automatically pauses and you'll get a red border around your screen.

This horrific shit is all ready to go, I think there is no hyperbole or irrational slippery slope at all

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by lp0_on_fire on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @01:10PM (#27751397)
"They aren't requiring a network interface to collect telemetry - that's a slippery slope" was a common refrain a decade ago, too.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by afavour on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @01:29PM (#27751667)
Yes.. and they weren't requiring a network interface in order to collect telemetry. They were requiring a network interface in order for Windows laptop purchasers to know that they'd be able to connect to the internet.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by swiley on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @05:20PM (#27754416)
There's currently a landslide going on WRT OS vendors and privacy, I wouldn't call any "slippery slopes" a fallacy at this point.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by mfer on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:42PM (#27750940)
How does Windows track all the things? What of the information they do collect doesn't have an opt-in/out? The opt-in/out is part of the setup process (in the cases I've seen) so it's not hidden away.

I'm not a Windows fan or anything like that. Don't even use Windows as one of my main systems. I'm just dealing with it so I've seen some of these things.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by lp0_on_fire on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:50PM (#27751089)
https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/data-collection-windows

Goes into more detail as to what they collect.

Browsing data, devices connected to the system, what you type, or transcribe via text or ink (speech to text, handwriting to text etc), what applications you're running and for how long.

> The opt-in/out is part of the setup process (in the cases I've seen) so it's not hidden away.

It gets reset _literally_ every time they push out a larger update. They prompt you with a modal form that defaults to tracking turned on (even though I had it turned off to begin with). Guess someone at Microsoft figured out that the tech-literate among us were turning that setting off as soon as our non-tech-literate family/friends took their PCs out of the box around the Christmas tree.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by monocasa on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:50PM (#27751082)
It has a really bad habit of resetting the opt-outs on updates, so about every six months.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by Arnt on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @01:07PM (#27751350)
This is also the Microsoft that IMO has the best, most user-friendly approach to keeping the computer as the user wants it, while allowing the changes the user wants.

Debian didn't impress me when I upgraded my main workstation recently. A long list of important prompts and not so important prompts, enough to make me click "ok, whatever, get on with it". (Oh, and even Debian also requires a network interface and contains a phone-home package. Getting security fixes without a normal network interface is a Challenge, and security fixes aren't really optional these day.)

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by layer8 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @02:28PM (#27752469)
> Oh, and even Debian also requires a network interface and contains a phone-home package. Getting security fixes without a normal network interface is a Challenge, and security fixes aren't really optional these day.

I’d say security fixes are rather optional these days if you have no network interface.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by Arnt on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:53AM (#27760020)
Certainly, but does that matter at all? Can you even buy one?

You certainly can buy a new laptop on Amazon, open it, remove the WLAN antenna, glue the USB plug(s) and need no security fixes. But at that point you're far from the mainstream. And I am impressed by how Microsoft manages to provide decent security in a user-friendly way, one that expects little unrealistic behaviour and doesn't restrict the term "user" to people far from the mainstream.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by 015a on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:55PM (#27751170)
Yeah seriously. Try and find a Windows laptop with no front-facing camera nowadays; they don't exist. Maybe some OEM white-box bargain bin hardware. Even System76, the ultra-privacy respecting Linux laptop vendor, sells precisely zero laptops w/o front-facing cameras.

Even the argument for consistency is tenuous; its already consistent. Microsoft says that all laptops must have DDR memory, at least 4gb. Its the same thing; you don't need memory, technically, to run an OS. Its just better that its there, and operating systems can be more sophisticated knowing that you've got it.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by Hamcha on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @01:08PM (#27751377)
Probably because it would be an unpopular move. I have a friend who had the Zephyrus GA502, a quite successful gaming laptop, and he hated not having a front facing camera.

Hardware shutters is what people should push for imo

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by daxuak on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:36PM (#27750834)
I agree it's a hyperbolic piece, but at the same time Windows11 as an OS demanding an auxiliary hardware isn't looking very good.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by jsnell on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:50PM (#27751091)
It is very unlikely to be W11 as an OS demanding that. It will be the OEM licensing agreement for pre-installing a cheap license on a laptop.

This kind of thing is absolutely mandatory in this day and age. If you don't let commodity OS makers set any limits on the hardware to ensure a consistent experience, it will be very hard for them to compete with integrated solutions.

If there was some kind of a suggestion of MS self-dealing here, then maybe the concerns would make sense. E.g. requiring the laptop to have a MS-manufactured camera. But there isn't. It is clearly just an attempt to set a consistent minimum bar on the UX.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by daxuak on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @01:11PM (#27751410)
My concern is that as other comments mentioned in this post, the majority of recent laptops already have webcams without OEM licensing pressure. Webcam is also a piece of hardware that doesn't require one to be tech literate to figure out - someone getting a laptop without a webcam very likely knows what they will get, unlike the slightly comfusing intel CPU namings etc. Additionally, the differentiation factor between W11 PCs and mac at the moment doesn't seem to be the prescence of webcams; a bunch of mac iterations actually had awful webcams, and I've never heard of anyone ditching mac just because of them.

Combining these three factors, the direction W11 is heading to does not look as genuine as they describe it. And if so, the descend from OEM requirement to OS requirement could happen sooner or later. I wholeheartedly hope they do not though.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by jsnell on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @01:26PM (#27751631)
Majority but not all is kind of the worst case. If 95% of laptops have a webcam, people will not think to look at whether the laptop has one. I certainly haven't checked the webcam / microphone specs of any laptop I've bought in the last 10 years, but just assumed they would be there.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by layer8 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @02:36PM (#27752560)
Windows 11 as an OS won’t require a camera. It’s a requirement for vendors to be allowed by Microsoft to put a "Designed for Windows 11" sticker on the hardware.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by ykat7 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:53PM (#27751145)
I'm still unsure where exactly Microsoft documented the requirement for OEMs to add a front-facing camera from 2023. Did they publish a system requirements doc or something?

IMO the author overindexed on making vague allusions to telescreens ("1984-style future [...] laptops, desktop PCs, TVs") and criticising Microsoft for its "Productivity Score" (a different discussion entirely).

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by layer8 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @02:38PM (#27752590)
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by simonh on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:30PM (#27750739)
Indeed, fortunately duct tape exists.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by phkahler on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:46PM (#27751016)
Until they require face-ID. Then another percentage of people will not bother to block the camera.

For those calling the 1984 references over the top fear mongering, I'd just ask one question: Why does Microsoft even care about users having a camera? When you answer that, I'd probably respond with "Nope, not a strong enough reason to be a requirement for Windows, try again." Rinse and and repeat. It's happening in China, it's happening at Amazon...

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by lp0_on_fire on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:55PM (#27751167)
> Until they require face-ID.

That's the next logical step, for "security", of course.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by itsme-alan on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:51PM (#27751100)
Face ID won't be a requirement. It's impossible
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by dmix on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:36PM (#27750835)
Or plastic camera sliders that stick perfectly within the black part of a macbook pro screen (or similar I'm guessing). Only a few dollars on Amazon.

Putting tape on camera's leaves residue and we all get stuck in Zoom calls these days.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by WalterBright on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:49PM (#27751063)
> residue

Put a small piece of clean paper over the lens to protect it, then tape over that.

Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by davesmylie on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @05:17PM (#27754377)
blue or green masking tape works great - dirt cheap and designed to pull off cleanly. I've had some on my macbook camera for going on 8 years now - pulls off for zoom calls and then goes straight back on.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by dzhiurgis on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @08:50PM (#27756163)
Can't a laptop identify themselves as desktop?
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by bigpeopleareold on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @12:40PM (#27750901)
Or if you can, physically removing the camera - but then, will Windows complain? :)
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by swiley on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @01:06PM (#27751335)
I don't know about you but after what happened with smartphones I'm pretty much done giving OS vendors the benefit of the doubt.
Re:Windows 11 laptops will require front facing camera in 2023 by Black101 on Tuesday July 06, 2021 @08:52PM (#27756172)
We are way past 1984 with cellphones... that is just icing on the cake. If I was on a different forum, I would think that you were working for MS.