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Re:Shorting Bitcoin by lordnacho on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @02:08AM (#27672406)
Derivatives guy here. Perfectly fine opinion, but two issues.

Why now? This is a general investing issue. Trading costs money, holding a put costs money, so why will the market do what you think in this time frame?

Why are the puts cheap? This could be substantiated with some numbers, esp implied volatility. Are they cheap vs history? I don't know, but the reasoning should show why you think so. Note I'm not looking for breakevens. That can be worked out from the price, but it doesn't tell you whether that is more or less likely than the market's opinion.

Totally reasonable points otherwise.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by Sammi on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:06AM (#27673879)
In trading you need a catalyst. A reason for why something will happen in a certain time frame. That's the basic premise for how trading works. If you don't have a catalyst then you are just blindly gambling or throwing your money away.

OP gives a bunch of reasons, but no reason why any of that will play out in his particular time frame. So he's not trading. Time will tell if he is gambling or throwing his money away.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by tim333 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:52AM (#27674123)
Well he may not be saying his reasons timing wise. But if you look at the long term bitcoin graph it looks like it had a peak in may around $62k and could fall to something like $15k based on past peaks https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/

Also if you look at trading volume, here on coinbase but it's the same for other exchanges, it also seems to have had a peak in may and be going down which also in the past has lead to falls in btc https://nomics.com/exchanges/gdax-coinbase-exchange

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by BrissyCoder on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:49PM (#27683261)
Yeah - the closest he comes to providing one is "My best guess is that pretty soon the supply of greater fools runs out." But that's not very scientific.

I suspect the catalyst will be some kind of regulatory action against Tether. But yeah it's really anyone's guess at this stage and as you point out it's knowing the timeframe that is the problem with shorting.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by panarky on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @02:39AM (#27672605)
Since he bought his puts on 6/26, BTC is up 9.5%, MSTR is up 9.9% and COIN is up 13.5%.

He's already pretty deep underwater.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by foolmeonce on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:46AM (#27673771)
If you are betting something will tank then you don't time the market to get to put at the best price. Buying these puts either pays out a lot if there is a giant dive before they expire or is a cost to cover that time period.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by heropaul on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @07:45AM (#27687353)
Timing is everything, being early is the same as being wrong.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by jschulenklopper on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:24AM (#27673974)
Is he underwater? Aren't the put options that he bought previously just not cheaper now?

On options being underwater: "Underwater stock options have an exercise price which is greater than the market price of the underlying stock." Is that his situation?

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by ludamad on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @08:58AM (#27675157)
To be "short" you can sell borrowed equities, sell calls that you write, or buy put options. Buying put options will cap your risk at the option price (I think underwater just meant "lost lots of money" - more likely to go out of bounds with the first two kinds of short positions)
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by jschulenklopper on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:14AM (#27677004)
Sorry, but no.

Those three are all 'bearish' strategies, but "going short" is selling something you don't have. Buying put options isn't short selling, although both are anticipating a decrease in the value of something.

Underwater is the term for a contract or asset that is worth less than its notional value.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/trading/092613/differe...

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/underwater.asp

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by ludamad on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:20AM (#27677085)
Thanks for the clarification. I used "short" in quotes as that was the article terminology.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by retube on Monday July 05, 2021 @05:58AM (#27736195)
If the asset he has bought is now cheaper, then yes he is "underwater" (i.e he has lost money on a mark-to-market basis - if he was to close out he would crystallize a loss)
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by puranjay on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @08:24AM (#27674835)
This is the "return to normal" pump before the crash.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by atatatat on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:26AM (#27677215)
What crash, why?
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by femto113 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @02:32AM (#27672559)
Except if you believe, as the author does, that the entire market is just scams and insider manipulation there is no meaning to be gleaned from any of the numbers. If it's all a sham it will blow up at some point, it's just a question of when, but that will almost certainly be precipitated by some unpredictable external event.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by mmahemoff on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:05AM (#27672765)
"Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent." - John Maynard Keynes

Speculating on options based only on irrational pricing is a risky game. You could be waiting years for the correction to occur and it might never occur if the fundamentals change to make the price more rational.

You can increase your safety level with a known catalyst. In this case, it might be something like an SEC investigation into tether, but you'd have to decide on the timing, the probability that occurs, and how much it could ultimately decrease the related stock prices.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by AmericanChopper on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:00AM (#27672743)
That’s a very bad thesis to trade options on. The author believes that BTC is overvalued, but if you look at their reasons for believing it’s overvalued, some of them could have applied to BTC at any point in time over the past several years, and the rest could have applied to BTC and any point in time since it’s creation.

By buying puts on bitcoin (derivatives), they’re not only betting that they’re correct, but also that something will happen in the next 5-6 months that will catalyze the market to correct that valuation. They don’t have any thesis at all for what’s going to catalyze this correction over the next 5-6 months. Their entire investment thesis is that “[they’d] be astonished if we get through 2021 without an explosion”. The investment described in this blog post is just a crypto-bear yolo play, with less thought put into it than your average r/WSB post.

Edit: looking at the options chain for the BTC ETF they’re shorting, NTM puts are trading at $2, so the underlying has to lose about 1/3rd of its value for that trade to break even. If it goes to $0, their maximum profit is ~$400 per ~$200 contract. That’s certainly not a cheap contract.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by midjji on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:42AM (#27673012)
Bitcoin, like tesla stock is better predicted by treating it as a religion than a rational investment. So how long are people going to believe a kid who said a god knocked her up to avoid getting stoned?
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by wolfhumble on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @08:06AM (#27674687)
> So how long are people going to believe a kid who said a god knocked her up to avoid getting stoned?

What you say does not make much sense. When Jesus came to Nazareth as a grown man, this is what His neighbours said about Him:

“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?" (NIV Matthew 13:54).

And a few verses later: "And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”" (NIV Matthew 13:57)

So clearly, Mary – Jesus's mother – was not kept from being stoned because her neighbours believed Jesus was the Son of God, see Luke 1:26-38 for what Mary was foretold by the angel about her birth of Jesus as the Son of God.

Before Jesus was born, Joseph married Mary: "When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife" (NIV Luke 1:24).

Jesus became known as our Saviour because of His words, acts, death and resurrection, not because the neighbours thought He was so spectacular when He was born.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by username90 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @04:38PM (#27681419)
> Jesus became known as our Saviour because of His (...) resurrection

There is no evidence for this except what is told in the Bible. Which is the whole point, you are one of those irrational people who are holding onto an irrational asset (Religion). That asset has value to you since others are holding the same asset, if there were no others in the world who believed in the Bible then you wouldn't believe either. So shorting Bible belief could seem rational, it is bound to die sooner or later, but likely it wont die in the next 10 years.

And just to illustrate, a rational belief is belief in something like newtons laws of physics. Although they aren't 100% correct they are still useful for solving many problems so they will likely survive as long as humanity exists. The main difference is that the laws of physics has value even if you are the only person believing in them. Similarly Amazon stock has value even if nobody else wants to buy them. But bitcoins just like the Bible has no value if others doesn't believe in them.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by eternalban on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:30PM (#27681960)
Some great minds in 18th/19th century debated all this in context of rationality. Kant, et al. Some of the discussions were in fact about the "utility" of belief.

As to "rational belief", isn't that an oxymoron? There is 'rational knowledge'. Belief is precisely regarding matters where reason remains mute. Your beliefs and your knowledge are the full content of your world reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Schleiermacher

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by midjji on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @05:52PM (#27693814)
Religion being true or not does not matter when predicting the behaviour of believers or the people who exploit belief. Trying to predict the price of tesla or bitcoin using their non investment related utility or in teslas case, comparable companies, gives extremely poor results. But if you believe in Tesla and its profit Elon Musk, that does not matter. And if you believe other people believe in Tesla in this way, and that they will keep successfully recruiting, then the price is not just motivated, but possibly kinda low.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by midjji on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @05:52PM (#27693813)
Religion being true or not does not matter when predicting the behaviour of believers or the people who exploit belief. Trying to predict the price of tesla or bitcoin using their non investment related utility or in teslas case, comparable companies, gives extremely poor results. But if you believe in Tesla and its profit Elon Musk, that does not matter. And if you believe other people believe in Tesla in this way, and that they will keep successfully recruiting, then the price is not just motivated, but possibly kinda low.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by AmericanChopper on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:48AM (#27673047)
Would you be interested in placing a bet with me that the world gives up on religion before the end of the year? Bets are $200 each, and if there’s 0 religious people left by December 17, I’ll pay 3:1. Any takers?
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by ykevinator3 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @07:42AM (#27674464)
Tesla has a ton of ip, Bitcoin is pretty cloneable
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by cko on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @12:24AM (#27684843)
Though Bitcoin does have brand name recognition. And being listed on major exchanges. Is that what they refer to as network effects, btw?

And if it's akin to religion or a well known brand, it could be easily cloneable but not easily adoptable. I can make a leather handbag or carbonated beverage right now, but unless I slap a Chanel or Coca Cola logo on it, it's not likely to be in demand.

We have the tendency to approach this from a rational perspective - "it's not a currency or store of value", "what about Tether", etc. But I can think of plenty of examples where the name itself is powerful enough. I'm not willing to bet that Christianity (or any major religion) will collapse in the near future. Slow decline, maybe.

Of course, maybe there's only like a tiny minority of true believers, a couple price manipulating whales, some smoke and mirror organizations, and everyone else is a Robin Hood speculator. I don't have the numbers on that.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by abriosi on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:02PM (#27680257)
Being open source it is not a characteristic for value. There are multiple positive and negative examples of things that are open source and (un)valuable
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by atatatat on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @11:28AM (#27677246)
e.g. Dogecoin
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by dustymcp on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @08:03AM (#27674662)
This was my exact thoughts well done
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by codebolt on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:34AM (#27673686)
One major caveat; You're not shorting BTC/USD, you're shorting BTC/USDT. As long as Tether is managed by a shady, unregulated corporation with zero transparency or oversight, that has full freedom to create as much artificial liquidity as they see fit, that seems like a very bad bet.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by puranjay on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @08:26AM (#27674852)
Most people don't know this but Tether and Bitfinex have the same parent company, iFinex. Bitfinex is easily the largest manipulator of BTC price and their wallet holds nearly 1% of the BTC supply.

Together, they practically control the market.

Even Bitcoin maxis agree that Tether's collateral is very risky. It's a house of cards waiting to collapse.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by bcrl on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @10:37PM (#27695774)
Why not short USDT directly then rather than throwing BTC into the mix?
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by codebolt on Wednesday July 07, 2021 @07:04AM (#27759632)
The more I think about it, the more I think that this is actually a pretty genius trade. The price of Tether is effectively capped at 1 USD, so it's not like a short position could blow up in your face. All you'd stand to lose is the interest.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by tasuki on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @04:23AM (#27673275)
> it will blow up at some point, it's just a question of when

The author's options expire around Christmas. A pretty clear deadline for the trade to be profitable.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by intev on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @03:03AM (#27672757)
“the markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by omgWhyPlease on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:24AM (#27673627)
“I may be early but I’m not wrong” “It’s the same thing Michael!”

Best big short quote.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by Sammi on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:01AM (#27673855)
Put options have a time limit. So being early means you loose the money you used to buy the put.

So yeah it is the same thing.

And Michael Burry was a lucky mother effer that he managed to keep his put on all the way until it finally happened.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by manquer on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @01:55PM (#27679409)
Or as today they would describe as it diamond hands.

It is rare to have both the conviction to bet everything and also be right at the same time.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by Sammi on Wednesday June 30, 2021 @03:45PM (#27692684)
Diamond hands are for holding perpetual assets not expiring options. For reasons I explained above.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by dwohnitmok on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @05:31AM (#27673665)
Rather unfortunate that in that movie scene the speaker of that sage piece of advice was cast as the one who was hysterically panicking and its recipient as the calm, reasonable one.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by jnwatson on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @12:47PM (#27678443)
Yeah I bought puts in Sears 10 years ago after reading about Lampert (the CEO). I was roughly 8 years early.

A company/idea/market can remain irrational a lot longer than you can remain solvent.

With shorting stock, and even worse with long options, not only do you have to have the right premise, but also the right timing.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by manquer on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @01:49PM (#27679334)
The market can stay irrational longer than you have money to hold your position.
Re:Shorting Bitcoin by jschulenklopper on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @06:34AM (#27674016)
On "why now?", he stated that he thinks the pool of new greater fools is running empty:

> My best guess is that pretty soon the supply of greater fools runs out.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by thisisit on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @08:15AM (#27674754)
I think there is lot of subjectivity in this trade.

The timing of the trade mostly author's gut feel that bitcoin will soon transition to a seller market as everyone who wants to buy bitcoin will already have one.

Puts being cheap is also a subjective measure. Author might be looking at past prices and making the bet. He isn't looking at greeks at all.

Re:Shorting Bitcoin by acomjean on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @09:01AM (#27675183)
I know to some extent trading stocks is a little like gambling. A lot of things you have no idea about can happen, but there is a lot of data that can help you make an educated guess. Even then a lot of unforeseen factors move a stock price.

Crypto investing seems a lot more like straight up gambling, where there isn’t a ton to go on. Even less to go on than investing in a regular currency, which isn’t very mainstream.